Episode 218: E-Bicycle Built for Who?
6/23/2022-- This week on The Horse Race, Steve and Lisa share their opinions on a *critical* Massachusetts food service matchup -- Dunkin' Donuts and Market Basket. If the two were on the ballot, which is securing your vote?
Later, Rich Parr, Research Director at The MassINC Polling Group shares details on the newest MPG transportation poll. The statewide survey asked residents whether they support policies like free and discounted bus fares, and their feelings on the safety of transportation modes like highways and the T. The poll also asked about e-bike rebates, and to talk more about proposed legislation surrounding e-bikes, Galen Mook of the Massachusetts Bicycle Coaltion stops by. An Act relative to electric bicycle rebates would provide $500 rebates for general consumers and up to $750 for low to moderate income consumers.
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This episode of The Horse Race was brought to you by Benchmark Strategies [www.benchmark-strategies.com] Benchmark is setting a new standard as Boston's fastest-growing public affairs consulting firm. To know more, connect with Benchmark on Twitter @benchmarkBoston.
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Full show transcript:
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:00:25] Today on The Horse Race, we take a look at MassINC Polling Group's most recent transportation poll. Then we're looking at new policies on e-bikes. It's Thursday, June 23rd. [00:00:35][9.8]
Steve Koczela: [00:00:53] Welcome back to The Horse Race, your weekly look at politics, policy and elections in Massachusetts. I'm Steve Koczela here with Lisa Kashinsky and a special guest right here up at the top, MassINC Polling Group, Research Director Rich Parr. And we have Rich here and we have Lisa here. And I'm here to talk about a key, I would even say critical poll released by the UMass Lowell polling shop today. It had lots about everything from governor to policy issues on lots of issues of import of which we're going to talk about, literally none of them. Instead, we're talking about the question that all Massachusetts residents want to know about, which is Dunkin' Donuts versus Market Basket. So, Lisa, take us away. [00:01:32][39.8]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:01:33] Well, it looks like, at least in this poll, that Dunkin Donuts has the highest favorability rating of pretty much anything in the state that they polled on the politicians, the supermarkets, Mass MassHealth, which had a nice favorable of 64. [00:01:51][17.2]
Steve Koczela: [00:01:52] That says a lot. People like donuts more than health. [00:01:54][2.1]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:01:56] Dunkin Donuts. They got the edge over Market Basket by one sole, tiny little percentage point. [00:02:02][6.4]
Rich Parr: [00:02:03] Yes. But I am going to point out that their unfavorables are twice as high as market baskets. So clearly there's some people who have some objection or something. They got their got the the wrong coffee, the wrong donut or got the stale coffee. I mean, Market Basket. What's not to love about Market Basket? It's just, you know, cheap food and sawdust on the floor is. [00:02:23][20.0]
Steve Koczela: [00:02:24] Also in there on the in terms of grocery stores, one Stop and Shop, Stop and Shop came in a considerable amount lower with only 62% favorable. So definitely Massachusetts loves their Market Basket. No two ways about it. [00:02:37][12.6]
Rich Parr: [00:02:38] Well, start, Stop and Shop has that robot that goes down the aisles, too. I mean, that's like that's like a five point knock on yoru favorables right ehre. [00:02:44][5.9]
Steve Koczela: [00:02:44] We should we should do a poll where we just do favorables on that robot. [00:02:46][2.5]
Rich Parr: [00:02:47] On that robot? Yeah. [00:02:48][0.7]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:02:49] How long has it been since I've been in a Stop and Shop that I didn't know that that robot existed? [00:02:53][4.1]
Steve Koczela: [00:02:54] Oh, it's this. It's like six feet tall, and it just, like, goes around slowly beeping with, like, creepy looking eyes on the front. And I don't actually know what it does. I don't I don't know if it does anything. It just comes around creepily staring at you and, like, startling you when you turn around. And there it is. [00:03:10][16.4]
Rich Parr: [00:03:10] It is very unnerving. [00:03:11][0.9]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:03:12] This is why I go to Wegmans. Sorry Massachusetts. [00:03:14][1.9]
Steve Koczela: [00:03:16] Hot take. Hot take. [00:03:17][1.0]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:03:18] I'm from upstate New York. Everyone knows that. I like Market Basket, but I'm always going to be faithful to my hometown supermarket. Shout out to Wegmans and Danny Wegman. You're the best. Sorry. [00:03:31][12.8]
Rich Parr: [00:03:33] See, as the token western mass person here, I have to stand up for Big Y. If you're having a kid's birthday party in western mass, you're getting a Big Y party pizza. It's like three feet long and two feet wide. It's just like a table's worth of pizza cut up into little squares, and you serve that to your children and with a birthday cake and you're good to go. [00:03:53][20.0]
Steve Koczela: [00:03:53] Yikes. That's all I can say to that. Also in the poll, there were favorables for key figures on the New England Patriots. We had Tom Brady with only 52% favorable and almost a quarter of Massachusetts residents saying that they view him unfavorably. The poll also dug in on the key question of if the Patriots play the Buccaneers, who would you cheer for? And on that question, the poll found 59% said they'd go for the Patriots and just 7% for the Buccaneers. So I'm afraid no loyalty to Brady. [00:04:21][27.9]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:04:22] My biggest question of that is who were the 34% of you all who? And by that I mean the people listening to this and the people who took this poll who wouldn't cheer for either team. Who are you rooting for? This is Massachusetts. Even I root for the Patriots. [00:04:38][16.3]
Steve Koczela: [00:04:39] I'm just not going to say anything right now. [00:04:41][1.5]
Rich Parr: [00:04:42] Yeah. [00:04:42][0.0]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:04:42] How do you root for? [00:04:43][0.6]
Steve Koczela: [00:04:43] I'm from Wisconsin. I well, if I'm going to root for a football team, which I do very rarely, it would probably be the Packers. Packers, Bucks Brewers, you know, that sort of thing. [00:04:54][10.9]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:04:55] Again, I'm from New York and I've been a Patriots fan since I was a child, like before Tom Brady existed. [00:05:01][6.1]
Steve Koczela: [00:05:03] I'm genetically incapable of cheering for the Patriots. It's like literally against the DNA in my body, scientifically unable to do it. And now this podcast is going to get canceled. Sorry about that, John. We did it. We did our best. And one non food service or Patriots related item that was included in the poll was the MBTA where the poll found 40% held a favorable view, 29% unfavorable. Of course, there's a lot to talk about in the news Lisa, this week, almost none of it good. So give us a sense of what's going on there. [00:05:37][34.0]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:05:37] Yeah, the FTA directives for basically how to fix the staffing and safety issues for the T and even these preliminary ones have kind of sent everything into a tailspin. You know, facing this pressure from the feds, the MBTA cut weekday service on blue, orange and red lines and basically said they're going to be running weekend schedules for the summer because they don't have the staffing to run the weekday schedules. So that's chaos part one. There is another escalator that reversed over the weekend. No injuries this time, but definitely scary to see that again. The legislature is now looking to haul in, you know, Governor Baker and other members of the administration over the T and have a pretty rare oversight hearing into how the transit agencies is being run. And that's pretty much all the news that we've gotten just in the past three days, not even the stuff that predates that. So there's a lot going on right now. [00:06:39][61.5]
Steve Koczela: [00:06:40] So the service changes just, of course, began this week. We don't exactly know how long they're going to last, but our producer, Libby, of course, you have been one of the writers that's been impacted by these service changes. So tell us how that how that's been going so far. [00:06:54][13.8]
Libby Gormley: [00:06:55] Yeah, I've been coming into the office two days a week and the past two rides have been noticeably more crowded than usual because with reduced service, you're getting more packed trains. And yeah, it just feels more claustrophobic than it's been in recent, recent times. And it just sort of brings to my mind the the continuing lack of a mask mandate. And I wonder if other riders feel similarly. So I guess if you do, listeners feel free to chime in and let us know how you're feeling and how these these new directives have affected your your commute. [00:07:28][33.4]
Steve Koczela: [00:07:29] Yeah. I mean, I don't really know how long they're going to last, you know, so this could be going on for quite a while and comes amid, of course, a whole lot of other issues. The red and orange line new cars are not even in service at the moment. Certainly a lot to think about just in terms of, you know, we're kind of coming up to the end of Charlie Baker's term now and there's been such a big focus on the T. So basically, what does it all mean? You know, what does it all say about the long term prospects of transit in Boston? And, you know, all the efforts that the Baker administration has made toward trying to fix the T. So lots to think about there for sure. But that brings us to the age old question, which we have yet to answer to any of our satisfaction, which is why are we here today, Lisa? [00:08:08][38.6]
Libby Gormley: [00:08:09] Well, we've already run through the MBTA's woes. So now we're going to talk to Rich Parr of the MassINC Polling Group about a new transportation poll that's released today. And then we'll take a deeper dive into a specific form of transportation, e-bikes and the laws in the works to get folks to actually write them. [00:08:28][19.9]
Steve Koczela: [00:08:29] All right. Let's get going. [00:08:30][0.7]
Libby Gormley: [00:08:30] Let's ride. [00:08:30][0.3]
Steve Koczela: [00:08:34] A poll released today by us at the MassINC Polling Group looks at Massachusetts residents opinions on the state of transportation in Commonwealth. It covers a range of policy issues and looks at what residents think about the current state and the future of the system. To dig into the poll's findings, we're joined by the titan of transportation surveys, Rich Parr in his spare time, which is also research director at the MassINC Polling Group. Rich, thanks for joining us once again here on The Horse Race. [00:08:58][24.7]
Rich Parr: [00:08:59] Happy to be here. [00:09:00][0.6]
Steve Koczela: [00:09:00] So one of the things that we've seen a lot in the headlines over the last year or so is the idea of free or discounted fares, either on the whole MBTA or just on the bus. I know this poll dug in a lot on that. Rich, what did it find? [00:09:12][11.4]
Rich Parr: [00:09:13] So we asked about both a low income fare discount, which is to say if you made under a certain amount of money that you would pay less for your public transit fares. And also the idea of making the busses that the MBTA and the regional transit authorities outside of the MBTA run completely free, meaning that you wouldn't have to pay a fare, you could get on any door, don't have to go up to the driver and walk in. You can it basically speeds up the process a little bit. And both of these were very popular in this poll. The low income fare discount was extremely popular, 84% support for this, which is up five points from when we asked about that same question in December of 2021. That was the last time we asked about that in a poll. And so it's gone up a little bit. Increased a little bit. The free bus, we asked it in a slightly different way in this survey than we did previously. It got 78% support in the survey. Previously, we had asked it among a series of different options for free transit, ranging from low income neighborhood busses all the way up to making the entire system free. So it's really hard to compare those two numbers, but 78% for free bus, 84% for low income fares. And I'll say that, you know, low income fares, 56% strongly support that idea. So to get over a majority in the strongly support category on any policy item is generally a sign that you're in an a pretty popular category among politicians. [00:10:38][85.1]
Libby Gormley: [00:10:39] Among politicians, we've seen free transit or discounted transit growing in popularity recently because of inflation. Did you get any sense from the poll that economic issues were at play with these big numbers in support? [00:10:50][10.9]
Rich Parr: [00:10:51] I think that that may have something to do with it. We asked people about the most important issue facing state government right now, as we often do in surveys and in this particular survey, economic and pocketbook issues really kind of rose to the top of the list. So 16% of people were citing the economy or jobs, 15% of comments involved inflation or the cost of living. And we had so many people mentioning just gas prices alone that we had to pull that out as its own category. We normally would, you know, fold that it was something else, but it just really stood out, 7% of the respondents responses mentioned gas prices specifically. So if you think about gas prices as being something that's really on the minds of people, you start to think about, well, how would you get some relief from that? Maybe it's thinking about taking public transit. Maybe it's thinking about dusting off that bike that's in your garage and taking that out instead of , you know, driving to the store or something like that. And so there are some policies in this poll that we tested that really kind of get at that idea of maybe people wanting to save a little bit of money on transportation and low income fares and making the busses free or two of those. But we also asked about things like letting people deduct their transit fares from their state taxes. Right now, you can deduct the cost of a T pass, but if you're not commuting to work every day anymore, you may be only going in two or three times a week, a T pass might not make economic sense for you, but if you can deduct like an individual fare here or there collectively, that could add up to something that would help. And people found that there was strong support for that idea. There was also strong support for letting people deduct bike share memberships like Blue Bikes or Valley Bike share out where I live. These are services where you can rent a bike at a dock on the street bike. Get to where you need to go and drop it off. These are usually membership type programs where you pay a certain amount of money a year to be a member, and then you get to use the bikes as much as you want. So people like the idea that they could deduct that bike share as like a commuter benefit from their taxes. That was another thing that we tested as well. [00:12:51][119.5]
Steve Koczela: [00:12:51] In the next segment, we're actually going to be digging in a lot more on e-bikes just in terms of what kinds of policies the legislature might be looking at. But the poll did dig in on e-bikes a fair amount. What did it say about where people's heads are on that issue? [00:13:05][13.4]
Rich Parr: [00:13:05] Yeah, this is an interesting issue. E-bikes is not something that we'd polled about before, really. We've pulled about electric vehicles and EVs, and we asked about that in this survey and we found support for new state level EV rebates, but we also found support for e-bike rebates, 67% or about two-thirds of the of the residents that we surveyed supported the idea of having a rebate to buy an electric bicycle. And e-bikes are kind of new to the market. It's sort of a new concept. Basically, it's a regular bike, but when you pedal, it gives you a little bit of an assist from an electric motor. They're not technically even, they're so new that they're not even technically legal in Massachusetts under the current law, it's sort of in this gray area. So part of what the legislation that's out there would be would be to sort of codify and categorize what these things actually are. And then that opens the door to being able to do other policy stuff on it. But we were more interested in just sort of understanding what the appetite for e-bikes was. And so you have that 67% rebate support number. 57% of people in the survey said that if they could get that rebate to go and buy an e-bike, that they would be interested in doing it right, at least somewhat interested in doing it. So, you know, 57%, at least somewhat interested. That doesn't sound like a gangbusters number as far as polling goes. But if you compare it to the fact that only 15% of people in the survey are currently riding a bike, you can start to see maybe what the appeal or the potential for e-bikes is that it gets you beyond just your, you know, spandex weekend warrior type of road biker or the hardcore bike commuter. And maybe into another category of people who were a little intimidated about biking before and might be open to, you know, trying out an e-bike. So it's definitely a growing category in the transport and transportation. And we found that that people are at least e-bike curious in this in this particular survey. [00:15:03][118.1]
Libby Gormley: [00:15:04] So it wouldn't be a conversation about transportation without hitting on my favorite while, I guess, which is traffic. So did you guys ask about traffic? Do people think it's the same worse as it was pre-pandemic? [00:15:17][12.8]
Rich Parr: [00:15:19] We did ask about traffic and it is interesting. People basically think that traffic is back in Massachusetts and this is not the first poll I think, that has found this. But but it is interesting that, you know, we're still having a lot of people in the survey telling us that they're working from home and would like to continue to work from home. But despite that, 45% of people say that traffic is about the same as it was pre-pandemic before March 2020 best that they can remember it, it seems like a long time ago now. And 38% actually say that traffic is worse now than it was before then. So it's not only 11% saying better. It's not like we're benefiting in some way from all of this work from home and that our roads are vacant and people are getting around better. It's actually somehow that traffic is still out there on the roads, despite the fact that a lot of people are continuing to work from home. So that's a really fascinating dynamic. I think it goes to show just how jampacked the roads were before. If you could be taking cars off the roads and still have a problem on the roads right now. [00:16:18][59.4]
Steve Koczela: [00:16:18] I'd say it sure feels like it, too. I mean, just anecdotally driving around, it does feel like, you know, traffic is always there. And that's just kind of the situation that we've kind of become used to in eastern Massachusetts. It's been frustrating, just, you know, in the last few weeks because and few months, really because the T, you know, has also been having its share of problems with shutdowns at various times and now running on a much lighter schedule. And now the new orange and red line cars are out of service. And it just seems like a constant stream of problems on the MBTA as well. But one of the specific causes that the poll looked at was actually delivery drivers and the extent to which they're contributing to traffic. So, Rich, tell us what the poll found on that issue. [00:17:02][43.9]
Rich Parr: [00:17:03] Yeah, I was a little bit surprised by this, but the responses on this one, I would have thought that this would be higher. But we asked people about this phenomenon of people. It's a combination of private drivers who are now driving for Uber Eats or Peapod or Instacart making deliveries for for folks, groceries and whatnot. And then, of course, now, of course, the Amazon trucks that you see everywhere dropping off packages for people. You know, both of those are, I think, trends that took off during the pandemic that people were not really calling someone to go and pick up their groceries for them before before COVID, and they persisted. Despite that, though, you know, what we found was that 34% of people think that those kinds of trips are causing more traffic now than they did before, 52%. Those say they're causing about the same amount of traffic. So I'm not quite sure what's going on there with that 52% number, whether people or what their memory is of the of the before time. But I still think that that third that 34% of people saying that these delivery vehicles that they're seeing around on the streets are causing more traffic, definitely is contributing to traffic, at least in the local neighborhoods that people are experiencing. Maybe not so much on the highways, but I kind of want to I kind of would have expected that number to be higher, to be honest. [00:18:19][75.6]
Libby Gormley: [00:18:20] So traffic's back and the T is having problems. So how safe do people think these different forms of transportation are? [00:18:29][8.8]
Rich Parr: [00:18:30] Yeah, this was an interesting question. I mean, we asked about safety because in part of all of the trouble that the T was having, but we didn't just want to single out the tea, we wanted to ask about the entire system and sort of see how everything compares. And by and large, I have to say, most people think that most of our different aspects of the transportation network, the state highways, bridges, local roads, the teas, subway, the commuter rail, busses, etc. most people think that these are at least somewhat safe. So that's the good news there. It ranges from, you know, 77% saying that that the state highways are at least somewhat safe, down to, you know, with the subway system of the MBTA, 57% of people saying somewhat safe. So a majority, but a much smaller number than what we're seeing for the local roads, what we're seeing for the highways. Interestingly, bridges, only 58% saying somewhat safe there on bridges. So of the road infrastructure, there's a little bit of concern about bridges compared to the other types of things. But, yes, the key definitely is because a little bit lower rated than than the road system. Some of that is also that more people are a little unsure about the rating of the of the T system that may because they are drivers and they don't have direct experience with it. I will say that folks who told us in this survey that they are transit riders tended to give the T a little bit of a higher rating on safety. So the people who are currently using it do think that it's a little bit safer than the public, the general public perception. But I think on a question like this, you really have to ask yourself, what's the right metric that should we should be shooting for? Right. Is it just somewhat safe? Is that enough to kind of give people confidence in the T, especially when they're hearing all these stories about the federal government coming in and stepping in and finding all of these problems and as a result, the T having to cut back service or take trains out of service and things like that. You know, this is one of those things where you might be wanting to shoot a little bit higher. You want people to think that the system is very safe and very few people across all of these different modes think that things are very safe. The the plurality or majority of people think that things are, you know, they're okay, they're good enough, maybe you would say. But when you have 29% of people saying that the T subway system is unsafe and another 14% unsure. I mean, that's a very sizable minority of residents who are expressing some concerns. And the question is, does those are those concerns a deterrent from them getting back on the system? And we've already talked about traffic. And one of the best ways to deal with traffic is to give people another way to get where they need to go. But if people don't think the public transit system is safe, that's going to be a problem in terms of encouraging them to get out of their cars and get on the T. [00:21:19][169.1]
Steve Koczela: [00:21:21] It's also a bit of a tricky comparison because, you know, the T may not be as safe as it should be, but, you know, compared to the roads where, you know, over 400 people died just in the last year alone, it certainly is safer than that. So it's kind of an interesting question to just in terms of what how people think about it and how they how they rate it and what they mean when they say certain ratings and so forth. But the bottom line rolling all of this together, given that the legislature is looking at transportation policy bills right now, what can policymakers take from this poll in terms of the overall public mood? What would the public accept or support in terms of changes to the system? [00:21:57][36.3]
Rich Parr: [00:21:58] Well, I think that the safety numbers on the T definitely the fact that they are lower and it is an interesting dynamic, Steve, you're right about what we're willing to accept as safe on the roads relative to what we're willing to accept in terms of in terms of public transit and how there's a disconnect there, I think a little bit with the real statistics. But I think that what this poll really shows that, you know, we tested a bunch of stuff that is actually kind of in play right now. These these low income fares are being studied. These free busses are happening in some places. These tax deductions that we looked at are actually a piece of legislation that's moving forward. Same with the e-bike rebate, same with codifying e-bikes into law. All of these things were really popular, so they're not gangbuster, tremendous, huge, overarching changes to the system. But there's small things that could make a difference in terms of making transportation more equitable and affordable and a little bit cleaner, too. I do. I will say we did actually test some fairly big ticket items in here, too, and found support for electrifying the commuter rail system or funding for electrifying school busses and public transit busses. So people are also willing to think think big on these things as well. There's an appetite for doing more, both in terms of things that could save people a little bit of money in their everyday life and also kind of bigger picture stuff. And the question is, of course, is, you know what? What will the legislature move across the finish line before the end of the session right now? Will it include any of these ideas? [00:23:23][85.4]
Libby Gormley: [00:23:24] Well, that is always the question, isn't it? But not one that we're going to be able to answer today. Rich, thanks for joining us and running us through this most recent transportation poll. [00:23:33][8.8]
Rich Parr: [00:23:34] You bet. Happy to do it. [00:23:35][0.9]
Steve Koczela: [00:23:42] We may see a vote as early as today on a bill to incentivize e-bike ridership here in Massachusetts. Here to tell us all about e-bikes and what the bills in Massachusetts and beyond would do, we have Galen Mook, executive director at the Massachusetts Bicycle Coalition. Welcome to the show, Galen. [00:23:57][15.0]
Galen Mook: [00:23:58] Excellent. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate the opportunity. [00:24:00][1.8]
Steve Koczela: [00:24:01] So we have to start with the very basics. Sometimes we can dove right into the details, but here we have to start with the basic question of what? What is an e-bike? What actually defines an e-bike? [00:24:11][10.4]
Galen Mook: [00:24:12] Well, good question, because it's actually a little trickier than we might want it to be, especially in the state. So the story is, is that e-bikes are relatively new and their technology and by new, I mean in the past ten or 15 years, we've kind of been able to really define what an e-bike is versus, say, a vespa scooter or a moped or other motorized bicycles. But in I'd say in the past six months or so, maybe in the past seven months or so, we've been getting guidance from the federal side of things to define e-bikes into a three-class system. And I'd say over the past, maybe nine or eight years or so, it's been up to the states to determine what an e-bike actually categorically is defined in statute. So basically what an e-bike is, is what you see riding around on the bike paths in a bike lanes these days of a machine that looks like a bicycle, acts like a bicycle, it rides like a bicycle, but it may have a helper motor and that helper motor can either be in the back wheel or the front wheel or in the crank system where the pedals are. And then there's a small battery. But, you know, I would say that if you're just a common layman and you're looking around at who is riding bikes out, especially in the greater Boston area, it's really hard to see the distinction, like physically see the distinction between what an e-bike is versus what a pedal bike is a standard analog pedal bike is. So that's a long winded way of saying that essentially they are out there, they are being ridden, they are looking like bicycles, but it's a bike that has a helper motor so that when a person is operating with you, typically when they're pedaling, there is a little bit of a an arm that kind of helps them get up over hills, get up over some tougher terrain and kind of maintain pedaling. And typically they top out at around 20 miles an hour for the standard slower speed e-bikes that are more common. And then there's a faster e-bike category, at least federally, that tops out at 28 miles an hour, which is about as fast as like a standard road biker can really top out. [00:26:18][126.0]
Steve Koczela: [00:26:19] And for someone like me who rides a bike rarely, but some sometimes with my children and as they say, you know, you never really forget. How is this kind of machine appropriate for an everyday biker or is this something which you should really have, you know, be used to commuting on your bike if you if you even want to try one of these things? [00:26:37][17.5]
Galen Mook: [00:26:37] Oh, no, definitely. These are made for barrier breaking. So what we're finding in the e-bike market and full disclosure, I don't work in the field anymore, but I used to work at Landry's bicycles doing retail for five years. So I kind of got a sense of who's coming in and who's asking about e-bikes. Typically, it's older adults. It's people who are getting back on the bike or people who might not necessarily have, you know, the confidence or the physical capability that would allow them to ride like an analog bike or a standard bike out there. So I really do think that they are really geared pun intended for people who are a little more hesitant about riding because they are what help people kind of get that physical, that momentum, that speed that allows them to have a little bit more confidence, a bit more stability out there. [00:27:25][47.2]
Steve Koczela: [00:27:25] Okay. Well, that's a very, very helpful description just to set the scene. And there is a movement here in Massachusetts to try to expand the use of e-bikes and, you know, movement also across the country, which we'll get to in a little bit. But let's start here in Massachusetts, where it sounds like we may see new legislation even this week. What is the legislature looking at doing? [00:27:45][19.5]
Galen Mook: [00:27:46] Yeah, hopefully so. I have yet to see the full slate. So because we're pre-recording a little bit, I guess maybe I'm waiting till Thursday to see how things turn out. But we're hopeful that an amendment to the transportation bond bill filed on the House side by Natalie Blais, who's out in the kind of the hilltown side of Massachusetts. She's hoping to get a e-bike incentive program out there, which would be a rebate for folks for low and moderate income folks to especially, but really for anybody, but especially low and moderate income to lower the cost of getting an electric assist bicycle. And that would really, for an equity conversation, really allow more people to feel like they have access to this device. Because what we're finding is that though e-bikes are a barrier breaker for people who are looking to get back out on the bike or maybe they're aging out or have some physical limitation. The price is also a barrier for folks who want to get out and ride of purchasing a new e-bike. Typically they run around like 1200 or 1500 bucks at the very, very base model, and they go from there. And so the goal of this piece of legislation would be that we are hoping that e-bikes should be considered essentially to be a zero emission vehicle for people who want to get on an e-bike, maybe ditch a car trip or two, maybe, you know, shrink their car usage for their household, go from two cars to one car, something along those lines. We really want to incentivize people to really think about e-bikes as an alternative to driving. And also it does the wonders of kind of reducing congestion out there by getting more people to ride bikes and fewer people to drive cars. And then, of course, it reduces greenhouse gases. So we're thinking of it as a climate solution. One of the many climate solutions that we need to pursue. So this bill. Let me see. Well, it's an amendment now, so I'm not going to find the bill number for you. But it was more or less due very favorably in that unique committee. And now we're trying to do the transportation side of things can take this up too because again, it's it's we're trying to get e-bikes to be as accessible as possible. And we know that the price is a big barrier for folks. [00:29:53][127.2]
Steve Koczela: [00:29:53] And, of course, as you noted earlier, there are some interesting questions of regulation just in terms of definitions, in terms of, you know, identifying and determining what e-bikes are and what they can do. Is any of that likely to make its way into any of the bills here in Massachusetts? [00:30:09][15.7]
Galen Mook: [00:30:10] Yeah, thanks for asking that, too, Steve. Well, we're hopeful, so we don't necessarily think we need one before the other. But there are two bills that we're pursuing. One, of course, is the rebate bill, which is an equity concern. And the other one would be to define electric bicycles, to remove them from the motorized conveyance category, which would basically allow them to operate in the world of bicycling so that the rules and regulations for people who ride bikes would also apply to people who ride e-bikes and less about people who are considered to be on motorized bicycle, which by statute are defined by a 50 cubic centimeter engine, which is gas, are defined by an automatic transmission, which is basically a moped. So the current concern is that we don't really have a definition for these e-bikes in statute. We're working on both the House side and the Senate side. Currently, the bill that made it through the Transportation Committee, we would recommend a few tweaks just to align it with the federal designation which passed in bipartisan infrastructure law, which got signed in and last November. And what we're hoping is that Massachusetts doesn't go its own way but really aligns itself with 46 other states and the feds because it just makes sense. But then also it allows us the ability to kind of regulate e-bikes as e-bikes and doesn't muddy the waters about, well, what's a motorized bicycle, which we all know very well is a moped that's been designated since, I think the seventies or the eighties. So we have decades worth of motorized bike prohibitions and regulations out there, including with the RMV. So that's a long winded way again, of saying that we're hoping that this could be taken up in the transportation ban bill. We're thinking of it either both the House or the Senate might want to put this out as amendments, but we're still working on it. So we're going to kind of see how that hashes out in conference. [00:31:52][102.3]
Steve Koczela: [00:31:53] But the basic the basic framework question, if I'm understanding correctly, would be you want e-bikes to be able to do what bikes can do. In other words, ride on bike paths, ride in bike lanes, and not have to live with the constraints that a moped has, which is they are more expected to ride on the road and adhere to the same laws as cars and that sort of thing. Am I understanding that correctly? [00:32:13][19.4]
Galen Mook: [00:32:13] Yeah, a bit of both. So we also want the ability of jurisdictions to regulate e-bikes based on their device. So we have one, two and three classes of e-bikes, which follows the federal standard. We want municipalities or maybe the DCR who have jurisdiction over pathways to say they want this type or not that type or whatever they need to do for regulations. But right now there's really no backing in statute. So even if there were regulations, there's no definition to define what those devices are. So we were just really just seeking clarity. It's a little bit less about regulations because I do think that does come to the jurisdictions purview. But really what we're trying to pursue is just let's get this down in Chapter nine so we know what we're talking about so that there's no gray area around. Well, that's a motorized bike, but not really a motorized bike because motorized means gas, if that makes sense. [00:33:03][49.9]
Steve Koczela: [00:33:04] But what would be what would be the ideal from your perspective, do you think that e-bikes should be able to do basically what bikes can do and, you know, not be restricted to what mopeds can do or what they live in some other area? In terms of just what you would think, an average rider of an e-bike where they would ride and how they would ride. [00:33:20][16.6]
Galen Mook: [00:33:21] Well, practically e-bikes are out there, right there, out there on the Charles River pathway as I ride into work and I'm seeing them more and more and more. And so for all intents and purposes, like regardless of the legislation, they are on the pathways, they are on the bike lanes, they are out there. And that's a good thing because that's another person riding a bike and one person not driving a car and also a little bit of autonomy and a little bit of movement and freedom and health and exercise and community and all the other benefits that come from biking also pertain to this person riding on an e-bike. But I would say that my real goal at Mass Bike is to afford us the ability to have the space to regulate e-bikes independently so that if you wanted to stay, have a mountain bike trail, that was for the analog bikes, but not for e-bikes, because there are mountain bikes out there, we have that ability to actually have that regulation in place. And then if we wanted to say this is just the example, it's not a real example, but say you wanted to build a trail for e-mountain bikes, then we know that we have the ability to allow e-mountain bikes on certain trips. So for instance, if we take a park which is pretend a DCR park like the Fells for instance, where there are some hiking trails that bikes are prohibited and then there are some biking trails. We also want the ability for the land manager to also build e- mountain bike trails if that's so in their inclination and have that be backed up by real definitions and real support because there is kind of a little bit of difference around like a design guide or studies and who gets to use what trails. And it is kind of on a trail by trail basis. Sometimes it's a park by park basis and we want the ability for a jurisdiction to have that flexibility. That's the real main goal. But I do think that, you know, where e-bikes are being ridden now, we're not seeing a lot of conflicts. They are out there. We're not seeing an uptick in crashes. We're not seeing an uptick in hospital visits. We're not seeing an uptick in EMS or ER visits. So, you know, there is concern around what these speed caps are, and I fully understand that. So one of the things of this bill as well that we're trying to pursue that may become amendments trying to pass, would require a public process in order for a jurisdiction to either prohibit or allow e-bikes on a certain trail. And that's really important for us at Mass Bike, because we want this to not operate in a vacuum and a void. We really want transparency around regulations that then are to follow after the definitions. But again, in order to get to regulations, we need to know what we're talking about first. [00:35:52][150.8]
Steve Koczela: [00:35:53] All right, Galen, while you've convinced me that, you know, I need to get out there and try one of these things out, Galen Mook, executive director at the Massachusetts Bicycle Coalition, thank you so much for joining us today. [00:36:03][9.8]
Galen Mook: [00:36:03] Yeah, my pleasure. I know it's complicated, but we're happy to be a resource for you. So always keep in touch with Mass Bike. And we're tracking this too. [00:36:08][5.3]
Steve Koczela: [00:36:16] And that brings us to our final segment this week, which is, of course, the Pony Express mailbag. And the mailbag for the week is we did a poll on Twitter or more properly, there's an ongoing poll on Twitter which is asking the key question, which we teed up in the introduction, which is if the election were held today and the choices were Dunkin' Donuts and Market Basket, how would you vote? So first of all, we have to ask ourselves, Lisa, how would you vote in this matchup? [00:36:40][24.6]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:36:41] Wegman's. No, I'm just kidding. [00:36:42][1.5]
Steve Koczela: [00:36:44] There was another specify you can write in a third person. [00:36:46][2.2]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:36:47] But when I looked at it on Twitter, no, I would say given my supermarket loyalty is that I would have to vote Dunks in this poll. [00:36:55][8.2]
Steve Koczela: [00:36:55] All right. Well, I'm going Market Basket just because I have never really fully understood or gotten on board with the regional Dunkin' Donuts obsession. But, you know, so I'm going to go with Market Basket anyway. Currently as we speak, Market Basket is ahead 57-43. We'll see where that ends up and report back to you with an exclusive update next week on The Horse Race. [00:37:17][21.5]
Lisa Kashinsky: [00:37:18] And hopefully we'll have Jenn Smith back at that point to break the tie. But that is all the time we have for today. I'm Lisa Kashinsky here with Steve Koczela. Our producer is Libby Gormley. Our intern is Elena Eberwein. Don't forget to give The Horse Race a review, wherever you're hearing us now, subscribe to the Massachusetts Politico Playbook and reach out to the MassINC Polling Group for polls. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week. [00:37:18][0.0]