Episode 201: Chris Dempsey on State Auditor Run

2/10/2022-- This week on The Horse Race, Lisa and Jenn discuss this week’s announcement out of the Governor’s office that the mask mandate for schools will end Feb. 28 and the reactions from the candidates running for Governor which, unsurprisingly, follow party lines.

In the first of a series of segments interviewing State Auditor candidates, Jenn, Steve, and Lisa speak with Chris Dempsey, who speaks about his plans to audit the State Police and create an Auditor's commission on environmental justice.

Full transcript below:

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:00:26] Today on The Horse Race, candidate for state auditor Chris Dempsey discusses his run for office and his plan to conduct a sweeping review of the Massachusetts State Police. It's Thursday, February 10th. [00:00:37][10.8]

Jennifer Smith: [00:00:48] Welcome back to The Horse Race, your weekly look at politics, policy and elections in Massachusetts. I'm Jennifer Smith here with Lisa Kashinsky. Steve Koczela will be joining us later on. And I assume all of us just finished watching the announcement that there is going to be an end to the state mask mandate for schools. Lisa, when can we expect that? [00:01:07][19.3]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:01:09] Yep, So kind of as expected, as the governor hinted earlier this week, the state will be letting its mask mandate for schools expire on February 28th. They are fully supporting people who would like to still wear their masks in schools past that date, but it will no longer be required. You know, the governor kind of sounded his usual notes of how important it is to keep kids in school, you know, particularly as we head into this third year of the pandemic and third year of learning disruptions that they're trying to minimize that type of effect and cited the state's high vaccination rates, including in children, he said today as part of the reasoning behind this, this change. [00:01:48][39.4]

Jennifer Smith: [00:01:49] And as you might expect, reactions are already coming in swiftly and loudly. So, Lisa, what are the folks who are running for governor have to say about the governor's news? [00:01:59][10.0]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:02:00] So far, it's unsurprisingly splitting along party lines. You know, Republican Geoff Diehl said, you know, he basically cheered this. He was like, "Today's announcement represents an enormous victory for parents and everyone else who had the courage to speak up against these mandates." Diehl, of course, had said he would lift the mandate now, has long called to ditch masks, so it's not a very surprising reaction from him. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we have Democratic State Senator Sonia Chang-Diaz, who said that the decision to lift the mandate doesn't reflect the reality of the situation, and we're likely to see more reaction playing out along those lines as people digest this news. And of course, we are seeing some reaction too that this is set to take effect are set to lapse right as kids come back from school vacation. [00:02:47][46.9]

Jennifer Smith: [00:02:48] One of the things that struck me too in the announcement was this shift over from requiring a waiver to lift a mask mandate to just kind of, you know, the assumption that the school can lift a mask mandate regardless of the vaccination rate in the actual building. And that's not schools alone. It's also licensed child care providers. So kind of anywhere that kids are at at the end of February, the institutions can decide kind of at the local level whether or not to lift those mandates. And one of the things that was emphasized as well was kind of the continuing use of the at home tests as an effective enough measure to kind of grab something, noting that the state guidance is still something along the lines of if you take these tests and if it comes back positive, stay home for five days and then you are encouraged to wear a mask when you come back into school. So it's not a statewide policy of saying Go burn your masks if you're in a school building. But I think their message was essentially these buildings are safe enough are vax rates are high enough and are testing availability is high enough that we no longer have to have a statewide rule that can be kind of down to local control. [00:04:01][73.4]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:04:03] You know, the governor's been saying for a while, you know, the data from the school testing programs have shown that school buildings themselves are not a very big source of transmission. You know, he tends to say the kids will pick it up. Other places, you know, not necessarily within the school buildings. One thing to note, though, per federal order, kids do still have to wear masks on school busses. So don't actually leave your masks at home, you are still going to need them on transportation. [00:04:29][26.9]

Jennifer Smith: [00:04:31] Yeah. Generally speaking, what I'm trying to figure out is there a mask required here is am I in motion? Am I in motion with other people on this vehicle, on this train, on this bus? So if you're on the bus, wear a mask. Still, the rule, per the feds. Hey, here's a Segway. Speaking of busses, there was an announcement in Dorchester this morning. Mayor Michelle Wu has extended the existing pilot of fare free bus routes on Route Twenty Eight and has now additionally eliminated fares on Routes 23 and 29 nine. So this means that three of the city's busiest bus routes running through Mattapan, Roxbury, Ruggles and then Ashmont to center through Grove Hall to Ruggles. And then again, Mattapan through Blue Hill AB to Jackson Square. These routes will all be free for a two year pilot. And Lisa, this is funded through that $8 million of ARPA money that we were talking about earlier. Right? [00:05:26][55.7]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:05:27] Yes, it is. It's coming through federal aid. And that was part of the holdup in getting this going actually was that she had to sit down with both the T and the feds because there was a cap on pilot programs in the feds, but that's now worked out a little speed bump as in the past there. This will start on March 1st last for two years. And during the press conference, you know, the mayor was saying that she would love to find more permanent funding sources to, you know, extend this and maybe expand it throughout the system. The meeting's general manager, Steve Proffitt Jack, of course, was saying, you know, there's a lot about costs that we would have to look at to do that. So we'll see where it goes from here. But this is a big policy win for the mayor. And you know, she's poised to achieve one of her earliest goals in office now. [00:06:11][44.4]

Jennifer Smith: [00:06:12] And speaking of follow ups from earlier conversations involving Mayor Michelle Wu, you had asked her when she was on the podcast a few weeks ago about what her metrics were for kind of lifting COVID restrictions. We have an answer now, don't we? [00:06:26][13.9]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:06:28] We do. She has laid out three different metrics to watch when she will start to roll back the proof of vaccination requirement for businesses. She wants to see fewer than 95 percent of ICU beds occupied, fewer than 200 COVID 19 hospitalizations a day and a community positivity rate below five percent. [00:06:47][19.5]

Jennifer Smith: [00:06:49] And I think that covers the major headlines this week. It is caucus season, so who knows there could be, you know, throw down somewhere that we aren't aware of, but we've got a guest coming on shortly. So who are we talking to Lisa? [00:07:01][12.7]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:07:02] We are talking to Chris Dempsey, who is running for state auditor. But before we get into that conversation, we're just going to chat among ourselves a little bit about the roles and duties of the state auditor. [00:07:13][10.6]

Jennifer Smith: [00:07:14] I'm sure everyone's very excited. Let's do it. So we know there are a million races to keep track of these days, and a number of them are for constitutional officer positions. So one that we're going to be dropping in on is the Office of State Auditor since Suzanne Bump said she wouldn't run again. We're going to be talking to candidates seeking the post and like we mentioned, we're starting with Chris Dempsey today. But first, let's touch on what this position actually is, shall we, when state auditor shows up on your ballot? Lisa, what are people voting for? [00:07:49][35.6]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:07:51] Well, this is an office that basically conducts performance reviews of various parts of state government agencies, departments, vendors, contracts, you name it. The auditor's office is the one that is tasked with making sure that Massachusetts is operating like it should and spending money like it should, which is always a major issue. [00:08:09][18.1]

Jennifer Smith: [00:08:10] That's right. And so if you go on to the state auditor's website, you'll see a pretty wide variety of things that they spend their time digging into. There's kind of the normal association of they look at things in the governor's office. They might look at the gaming commission, sheriff's departments. They have a pretty wide range of of departments and agencies they're supposed to be dropping in on. And lately, notably, the past few years have looked at some things about COVID spending and also Western mass infrastructure deficiencies. So Lisa, one of the things that's kind of interesting to me is that the auditor's office seems to have kind of this pretty strict expectation of what it spends its time on, but it also has a lot of leeway, depending on what the auditor him or herself wants to focus on, right? [00:08:55][45.6]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:08:56] Yeah, the auditor can have a much wider impact than you might expect, and that's why it's an attractive office, even though it's one of the kind of lesser known of the state's six constitutional offices. Right now, we have two Democrats who are running Chris Dempsey, who will be talking to in a minute, and state Senator Diana DiZoglio, who's been on Beacon Hill for about a decade now. We could potentially have a Republican, Anthony Amore, who ran for secretary of state against Bill Galvin in 2018, unsuccessfully. He has been calling around to campaign staff ins might be jumping in the race himself. [00:09:31][34.6]

Jennifer Smith: [00:09:31] All right. Well, let's hop in with the first candidate on our list. [00:09:34][2.8]

Steve Koczela: [00:09:37] Chris Dempsey, a transportation advocate and co-founder of 2015's No Boston Olympics campaign, is running for state auditor. He announced his campaign last July and since then has released a set of proposals he would pursue as auditor, touching on issues like police reform, public records, transparency and environmental justice. He joins us now to talk about those plans in depth. Chris Dempsey, thanks for being on the horse race. [00:10:00][23.3]

Chris Dempsey: [00:10:01] Steve, it's great to be with you. And with Jennifer and Lisa, too. Thanks so much for having me. [00:10:04][3.5]

Steve Koczela: [00:10:05] So to start off with the basic question, why are you running for auditor? [00:10:08][2.9]

Chris Dempsey: [00:10:08] This job is the chief accountability officer for the state of Massachusetts, and that really means doing two things. Number one, making state government work better. And number two, standing up to protect the public interest. And I've done both of those things in my career. I'm sure we'll have the chance to talk more about that. But I like talking here about my parents. My parents met as public school teachers in the Boston Public Schools. A math teacher and a social studies teacher were placed in adjoining classrooms, and they fell in love. And I grew up in a family where my parents were digging into their own pockets to pay for school supplies for their students. We know so many public school teachers are still doing that to this day across the Commonwealth. And when you see that firsthand, you ask some basic questions about why we are spending our public resources in some areas, while others are lacking or needing more resource or more revenue. Those fundamental questions are the job of the state auditor, and it's why I'm running for this office. [00:11:07][59.0]

Jennifer Smith: [00:11:09] So we'll kind of start with our most recent proposal that folks have been kind of digging into. You announced a proposal last week outlining a targeted audit of the state police shouldn't be a surprise to anyone in Massachusetts. The department's reputation has been going through a bit of a time right now. There was a scandal involving stolen overtime, public records destruction, so top level here. What exactly do you envision this audit as examining with the State Police Department, given that the Legislature has already, you know, conducted a decent amount of oversight as well? [00:11:41][32.6]

Chris Dempsey: [00:11:42] We put out a 15 point plan with targeted audits that we will do of the Massachusetts State Police when I'm auditor. I want to be very clear here that I am not approaching that institution and especially not the troopers are on the front lines with any hostility. In fact, I very much honor their service and respect it. But they deserve to work for an agency, an institution, the largest police force in New England that we can all be proud of and that we can all trust. And I think the scandals in recent years have really broken faith with the public, with that institution. So we're looking at everything from the hiring process to the promotion process to the way they handle public records, to the way they handle evidence, to issues and complaints around racial profiling, with people getting pulled over and being issued tickets. All of that needs to be on the table and I want the auditor's office to be a partner with others on Beacon Hill as we push that agency to be reformed, to be changed and to be an institution that we can all be proud of and that the troopers who work there can be proud of working for. [00:12:48][66.0]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:12:49] So the Legislature has taken a bit of a crack at this already by, you know, creating the post commission. How does that fit into what you're looking at and should that be audited as well? [00:12:58][8.9]

Chris Dempsey: [00:12:59] I think this is a little bit of a deeper dive in many ways, and we cover a broader range of issues than I think the Legislature has addressed in the past. It's clear to me that we need more leadership on Beacon Hill when it comes to the state police, our local state or local police departments have that additional level of oversight, with mayors and city councils and select boards that oversee them and can provide more of that day to day management. The state police answer only to leaders on Beacon Hill. We have not seen enough focus from those leaders on really doing a top to bottom review of this organization and again being a partner to the organization in reforming its culture, reforming its processes. So it's clear to me there's much more work that needs to be done, and it's going to be with the auditor's office in partnership with the Legislature and with the executive branch. But I want the auditor's office to be a leader on this particular issue. [00:13:54][55.4]

Steve Koczela: [00:13:56] So, Chris, I just want to ask you quickly about a little clip from your campaign video. [00:14:00][3.8]

Chris Dempsey: [00:14:01] [campaign video]: "I will make the office the first in the country to incorporate carbon accounting into our audits of relevant state agencies." [00:14:07][6.4]

Steve Koczela: [00:14:08] Tell us more about how that would work. Have other states done similar things? [00:14:11][2.9]

Chris Dempsey: [00:14:12] Steve we're proposing to make the auditor's office the first in the country to incorporate carbon accounting into our audits of state agencies, and that will allow us to hold those agencies accountable for the laws that are on the books that require them to reduce emissions. I think the Legislature has done a pretty good job of getting mandates on the books, but we have a big gap between our goals and our expectations and where we actually are in terms of performance. I've seen that up close in my work on transportation. It's the largest source of greenhouse gas emissions. It's actually rising while other sectors, sectors of our economy are decreasing. And yet the Secretary of Transportation, the MassDOT board of Directors, are not managing towards that issue. They're focused on all sorts of other things, but not focused on reducing emissions. As part of that, it's also really important that we hear from people who are on the front lines of the climate crisis. So we're proposing a first in Massachusetts example, which is creating an auditor's commission on environmental justice to bring folks to the table on Beacon Hill from around the state. That could be folks who live in coastal areas, folks who live along highways, which have higher rates of air pollution or near peaker power plants in Pittsfield or who live along route to where. When that road washes out, it means that their trip to the grocery store is all of a sudden 30 or 40 miles because they can't access that main road anymore. All of those folks are folks who are on the front line of the climate crisis, and we need them to have a voice on Beacon Hill as we're thinking about making change on climate and on environmental justice. [00:15:40][87.7]

Jennifer Smith: [00:15:42] So one of the things that the auditor's office, even though it's a pretty large agency you'd be in charge of of hundreds of folks in their deals with on a regular basis is just that it's tasked with overseeing a lot. There-- it's very, very difficult, of course, to do regular audits of major agencies every two years, every three years. So when you're talking about evaluating, for instance, the carbon footprint of MassDOT, are you looking at that as a kind of targeted audit of mass DOT's climate emissions? Or are you looking at something more along the lines of a full scale audit of MassDOT, which would incorporate that question? [00:16:19][36.8]

Chris Dempsey: [00:16:20] Yeah, that's a great question. The way I'm thinking about this is that actually a lot of that data is already there. So if you look at the Executive Office of Energy Environmental Affairs, they put out a report on their numbers for emissions from different sectors of our economy. And what we'll do is we'll test those numbers, but then start to do a better job of applying them to where the decisions are actually being made in state government. And it's it's almost as much a communications role as it is a technical role here. It's about making it clear to the public and to the Legislature that this gap exists and that there are leaders within state government who have control or have levers to pull to make these problems better to to start to address that gap, calling them out for that through these carbon accounting processes. But to be very clear on this. Jennifer, this is not just about making sure that MassDOT is converting its own fleet of vehicles to electric vehicles or making sure that it's, you know, installing charging stations at the mass pike rest stops. It's about making sure that MassDOT, as the entity that oversees transportation in Massachusetts, is reducing the entire emissions profile of the transportation sector, including private vehicles, including commuter rails, which today is running on dirty diesel and could be running on electric, as just two examples of the changes that we need. [00:17:43][83.2]

Steve Koczela: [00:17:44] So one recent report, sticking with the topic of transportation from the auditor's office, looked at the issue of road maintenance, among many other infrastructure issues, and kind of how they were distributed around the state and specifically looked at at how funding is allocated kind of regionally. And one of the one of the things that release about the study said was that the formula favors more populated areas, many of which are in eastern Massachusetts notes it's crumbling roads and so forth, and talks about updating kind of how funds are allocated. So that implication of all this is that roads in western Massachusetts should should be receiving more funding than they are and had a more emphasis than they are. Is that something you agree with? [00:18:23][39.0]

Chris Dempsey: [00:18:24] That's a great question, Steve. And you know, my work in transportation well enough to know that I have plenty of thought to provide on this question. But let me just say this first. The auditor's rural rescue plan is a great example of the work that the auditor's office can do to push policy change on Beacon Hill. When she put that out a few months ago, it got coverage from media outlets across the entire state, including media outlets that focus on urban areas. But we're interested in the fact that she was digging in on this issue, and it's an essential role for the auditor. IS offers to play as one of just six elected officials statewide to represent the people of Massachusetts on the more particular question of of Chapter nine. [00:19:04][39.5]

Chris Dempsey: [00:19:04] And that formula, I'm not sure that I want to get into a debate about whether that formula is the right one or not and whether it needs to be changed. I do think it's clear that formulas that are based on population were, for the most part, not created thinking about population declining in some of these communities. And we're seeing that in some rural areas, especially in western Massachusetts. It's hitting them not just for programs like Chapter 90, but also for things like pilot payments. When the state pays a tax payment that accounts for publicly owned land, state owned lands in those communities. And we don't want to see those those communities hit with a further burden of reducing those payments simply because they lost population over the course of a year or a decade. So I think it's absolutely fair to be having that conversation about whether those formulas make sense or whether they could be changed in ways that better protect those rural communities. [00:19:56][52.1]

Jennifer Smith: [00:19:58] So kind of following up on the question of transportation, you've got the environmental side of it, but then you've also kind of got the technical infrastructure side. There have been a few piecemeal audits of the MBTA over the years, usually focusing on a particular issue, for instance, security card disposal. Do you have any particular plans to delve more deeply into risk areas at the MTA or look at something more broad? [00:20:25][27.0]

Chris Dempsey: [00:20:26] I think it surprises some people to learn that the auditor's office actually has a team dedicated to the MBTA that sits co-located with the MBTA. That's a team that I think could be doing more to uncover issues at the MBTA in particular. I think we need to be focused on some of these bigger, larger projects and procurements that are really concerning in terms of their cost delays, their time delays and their cost overruns. And there are two in particular one of the red and orange line cars, which we know have been delayed, which have had some basic safety issues where they have had to be taken offline if we don't get that procurement right, it is an existential threat to the future of the Red Line in the orange line. Two of the busiest subway lines in the entire East Coast, frankly, outside of New York. So we have to make sure we get that right for the safety of our passengers and for the future economic health of the region. The other is the automated fare collection system AFC 2.0. That's the Charlie card. That project was supposed to be a $700 million, two to three, maybe four year project. It's now a $1 billion three to five to maybe seven year project. I mean, we don't really have any firm timelines on when that's going to get done really, really concerning that that project, which was pitched to the public as something that was not going to be over budget, not going to be delayed and was going to fix some fundamental problems with our fare collection system. Is that far behind? At the same time that we have been doing that procurement or that project, the New York MTA, not a place that is known for managing its projects well, hired the same vendor and their system is already up and running and ours is nowhere to be seen. So it raises some basic questions about project management the T, and it's absolutely appropriate for the auditor's office to be looking in and and digging in and making recommendations for fixes and changes there. [00:22:15][109.4]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:22:16] So switching gears a little bit. You've talked throughout this segment on, you know, how the auditor can push Beacon Hill. Tell us a little bit more about how you envision that interaction between the auditor's office and the Legislature to work. [00:22:28][11.9]

Chris Dempsey: [00:22:29] So it's so important that this role is elected by the people, and that's not true in every state. It's about 25 states or so that have a democratically elected auditor and other states it's appointed. But I think it's one of just six officials on Beacon Hill. You have to be independent of the Legislature. You have to be able to come to your own conclusions and follow the facts and the data. Now that being said, I also think it's a role where you have to find ways to collaborate with the Legislature. The power of the auditor's office to make policy change itself is relatively limited. It can point out where issues exist, but it can't actually change those policies without working with the executive branch and the Legislature. So there's going to be times where we agree there's going to be times when we disagree. It's important for me that those disagreements are done in ways that show that people on Beacon Hill are sent there by the by the public, by voters and want to do a good job. [00:23:27][58.3]

Chris Dempsey: [00:23:27] And sometimes we just have general and legitimate disagreements about policy. But I am not going to resort to name-calling or mudslinging when I disagree with someone. I think we've seen coming out of the no Boston Olympics effort that that's that can be done, that we can have a disagreement but still have to be cordial and have to be based on the facts. I'm really proud in this race that there are folks who are strong supporters and even workers and and advocates. For Boston 2024, who are with us in this race and who are contributing to our campaign, who are supporting me in this race, and they've seen that even we disagree, we can do it civilly and come out knowing that we're going to have a stronger Commonwealth because of that. [00:24:08][40.5]

Steve Koczela: [00:24:09] One of the realities on Beacon Hill these days and kind of really all around the country is that state legislatures suddenly have these sort of vast quantities of federal dollars that we are not used to having. And a lot of decisions need to be made about how to spend that money, how quickly, where to spend it and so forth. And all of that, I think, makes people rightfully nervous about whether the money is going to be spent appropriately and whether any of it's going to be wasted and so forth. So how does how does an office that, you know, is stretched thin in the best of times kind of get their arms around around an issue sort of that vast and expansive? [00:24:42][33.5]

Chris Dempsey: [00:24:43] It's not going to be easy, Steve, but it will be my very first priority as the next state auditor. In fact, the very first policy paper we put out was on the five point three billion in ARPA spending. I'm proud to say, by the way, that we're the only campaign in this race that has put out a policy paper of any kind. Talking about what we actually want to do in the office, that plan proposed to core things. The first is to try to audit those dollars in as close to real time as possible. It's not going to be easy, but I think it's important with most state programs because they're budgeted on an annual basis. You can go in at the end of the year, you can figure out what wasn't working and you can make recommendations for the year ahead. We don't want to do that with five point three billion of federal stimulus spending. Spend it all, then audit it. Figure out we didn't spend it that well, but we don't have the money to spend again. So trying to track those dollars in real time, real time to make changes, I think is important. The other is that we're adopting many of the recommendations of the Racial Equity Scorecard that was put out by the Black Economic Council of Massachusetts, the NAACP of New England, the Mass Public Health Association and many other groups. Trying to look at some equity, some equity metrics, some ways that we can measure where these dollars are flowing to make sure that we're building back a Commonwealth that is more fair and more equitable than the one that we had before the pandemic in so many ways. We we have seen gaps in terms of public health impacts and outcomes in terms of availability of state services through the course of the pandemic. Some communities have just been hit harder than others, and we have an opportunity here to make up that gap through this five point three billion and the auditor's office wants to make sure that that's the case. [00:26:22][98.2]

Lisa Kashinsky: [00:26:23] One of the things that your Democratic rival in this race so far, state Senator Diana DiZoglio has long pushed is asking, you know, for an audit of the RFP process for, you know, distributing vaccines and other things related to COVID. Is that something that you're concerned about? Is that something you feel needs to be looked at? [00:26:39][16.7]

Chris Dempsey: [00:26:40] I think it's appropriate for the auditor to be looking back at anything that happened during the pandemic and questioning where we got good outcomes and where we didn't, where we had good processes and where we didn't. I think the only thing that I would say is that as someone who has actually worked within the executive branch, I think we need to show a little bit of grace towards our public leaders who had an incredibly challenging few years. I don't think there is a single mayor or state representative or select board chair or town manager who would say or governor who would say that they got everything right during the pandemic. It was absolutely unprecedented, incredibly challenging circumstances. And what I don't want to do is be a Monday morning quarterback and try to point out the 50 things that people got wrong just for the sake of making them feel bad and making them and trying to claim that I would have gotten all of those decisions, right? Because anyone who has worked in an executive role knows that you don't get everything right. So yes, let's take some lessons away from what happened. Let's make sure things can be better in the future. But I'm not out there. I'm not running for this office to cast a lot of blame and to try to pretend that I would have made all those decisions correctly. No one could do that. [00:27:54][74.1]

Steve Koczela: [00:27:55] All right. Well, Chris Dempsey, candidate for state auditor Unfortunately, we have to leave it there. So thank you so much for joining us. [00:28:00][5.4]

Chris Dempsey: [00:28:01] Really appreciate the chance to be on with you guys and hope we have a chance to talk again before September. [00:28:05][3.3]

Jennifer Smith: [00:28:12] And that brings us to our final segment. Something to watch. Steve, what are you watching this week? [00:28:17][4.6]

Steve Koczela: [00:28:18] So the thing that I'm paying attention to is the reaction to Charlie Baker's announcement that the school mask ban will be I'm sorry, the school mask mandate will be ending later on this month. And specifically, I'm interested in how local school districts react and how schools react. Know which districts, if any, will put in their own mask mandates or what we seek by the end of the month. Pretty much most or all school districts across Massachusetts putting in going along with what Gov. Baker proposed, which is which is an end to school mask mandate. So that's what I'll be keeping an eye on. Jen, how about you? [00:28:49][31.9]

Jennifer Smith: [00:28:51] I am keeping an eye on the empty public halls of the statehouse. Under the Golden Dome the echoes continue. Basically, the statehouse is still kind of empty and closed, so I'm continuing to watch that very interesting set of circumstances, and I think we're going to be spending some time in a near future episode, heading on back up to that lovely, empty State House and actually seeing what they're doing in there. [00:29:18][28.0]

Steve Koczela: [00:29:19] Hopefully, we can actually get inside the building. You know, either that or we'll be just outside [00:29:24][4.8]

Jennifer Smith: [00:29:24] Steve's planning a prison break situation. [00:29:26][1.7]

Steve Koczela: [00:29:27] Right we'll have to have Mike Deehan try to break out and let us open the door for us or something like that, I don't know. [00:29:33][6.0]

Jennifer Smith: [00:29:33] Absolutely not. But that is all the time we have for today. I'm Jennifer Smith here with Steve Koczela and Lisa Kashinsky. Don't forget to subscribe to us wherever you listen to podcasts and leave a rating or review because it helps other people find us. Subscribe to Massachusetts Politico Playbook and ping The MassINC Polling Group for polls. Thank you all for listening. We'll see you next week. [00:29:33][0.0]