Episode 242: Off the Rails

Steve Koczela [00:00:02] The horse race is brought to you by benchmark strategies. Benchmark is setting a new standard as Boston's fastest growing public affairs consulting firm. To know more. Connect with Benchmark on Twitter at Benchmark Boston. 

Jennifer Smith [00:00:26] This week on the horse race. We've got trains and transitions. We're diving into a dysfunctional empty car factory in Springfield. And then Lisa Kashinsky walks us through her recent conversation with newly sworn in Governor Maura Healey. It's Thursday, January 19th. 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:00:56] Welcome back to the horse race, your weekly look at politics, policy and elections in Massachusetts. I'm Lisa Kashinsky. Very happy to be back after a few week absence on my part. And I'm here with my co-host, Jennifer Smith. She and Steve will take over in the back half of the episode to talk about trains, the favorite topic of the pod, I believe. But for now, I don't know. Republican chaos here in D.C. I feel like that's the big storyline of the year so far. 

Jennifer Smith [00:01:26] Lisa I feel like it's just generally from the state level on up to the national level. It's just this awkward aside in every conversation we have to have, which is like, Is the GOP okay? 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:01:40] I'm not sure right now. I mean, we saw C-SPAN. Everyone saw C-SPAN. 

Jennifer Smith [00:01:46] I'm just doing wild gestures over here. And in the zoom, it's just it's absolutely insane. I mean, it's it's kind of a period of awkward transitions, though, at least. I guess our congressional delegation is being pretty chill about the shifts that happen whenever you end up changing over party leadership. Like they're not thrilled about it. But Richard Neal and Jim McGovern have been demoted, so to speak, from no longer heading up the Ways and Means Committee and Rules committees. But then also in our delegation, rep Katherine Clark is ascendant. She's now minority whip. She's the second highest ranking Democrat in the House. So it's some ups and downs in our delegation, but none of them are named George Santos, so, even george Santos isn't named George Santos possibly. So we may have less chaos on our national side than other states have to deal with right now. 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:02:44] Maybe. But of course, there's always a massachusetts connection. There is. What is it? His communications director did that job previously for the GOP. Speaking of chaotic Republican parties; and also worked in the Baker administration. 

Jennifer Smith [00:02:59] Thank you so much for that transition. Because speaking of which, here on the state level playbook for the past week and a half or so has had just headline after topper of of kind of mass GOP chaos, finances, potential lawsuits. Give us the quick run through. Why is it so messy here right now? 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:03:21] Okay. Well, the top line of why it's so messy very simply because there is no way to do this simply. But this part is simple, is that it's just because there is a chairmanship election or a chairperson election, I should say, in less than two weeks at this point on the 31st. So you're seeing all of this come out now and it's going to continue to come out, you know, threatening more lawsuits, digging up possible campaign finance violations. You know, you're going to see a ton of mudslinging, all of the dirty laundry in the GOP. And it sounds like there's a lot of it so far is going to get aired in these next two weeks because this is like the ultimate test of the power struggle that like there is a bit of a break when Charlie Baker left office. But this very long running feud between kind of these it's not even ideological lines at this point. It's it's just it's very personal, you know, these fissures within the GOP and it's all going to come to a head on the 31st when they pick a new chair and just kind of, you know, hang on for the ride until then. 

Jennifer Smith [00:04:28] Now that we've covered all of that, why are we here today? What are we doing? Do we have a purpose? Is it still snowing? 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:04:35] Look, we have to see the one of the first big tests for any new governor is how they handle snowstorms. So speaking of new governors, we're going to be talking a bit about the new administration in a great Jen Smith pivot right there. And we're also going to I mean, I guess, unsurprisingly, for us return to the MBTA. 

Jennifer Smith [00:04:55] We love talking about these new and different topics famously. So let's get to it, shall we? 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:05:01] Let's ride. 

Jennifer Smith [00:05:09] Well, in some ways then our horse race stable is at full strength. Lisa, you have had a busy day reporting for Politico, Massachusetts, but you were here in the Zoom stable to tell us about the conversation you had with Massachusetts's new governor, Maura Healey. Let's start big. What were some of the main things you wanted to be sure to ask Healey about before you went in today? 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:05:31] You know, kind of the topics that continue to come up one. Obviously, transportation, our main theme here at the horse race and just you know, how she's going about not just fixing the MBTA, but also, you know, kind of taking a crack at its oversight, which is something that she had vowed to do on the campaign trail. Housing another priority of hers. It's a little too early to ask things about the budget. You know, she's only been in office for two weeks. She has until March on that. But, you know, we do try here, you know, to get some information about that and just kind of, you know, the dynamics of how things are going with the new Big three and Democratic one party rule on Beacon Hill. 

Jennifer Smith [00:06:13] It has been a complicated few weeks at least right now with the conversation around whether or not the DPU should continue to have oversight over the MBTA, which has been really kind of plagued with safety concerns, staffing concerns. And we're going to, as you mentioned up earlier, spend a lot of this podcast after you piece out talking about a very messy construction situation in the Springfield factory. But how does Healey feel about who should actually be in charge of this transit agency? 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:06:45] Well, I asked her point blank if she was open to removing the MBTA from DPU oversight, and she said that she was that, you know, all options have to be on the table at this point. But then, of course, you know, kind of knowing that she's still putting together her transportation team, waiting for some members to be sworn in, still looking for a new GM. So no concrete commitments right now. But she did express an openness to, you know, taking a look at it, changing up who actually has oversight of the MBTA. 

Jennifer Smith [00:07:19] And she also said she was open to a few different things on the housing front. I know plenty of people have kind of been trying to juggle the question of rent control. Michelle Wu, mayor of Boston, put out first details on her policy proposal around rent control just today when we're taping this, which is Wednesday. So when you're hearing this, it will be yesterday because time is confusing. But did Healey have a strong position on rent control or any other options in dealing with our pretty severe housing crunch in Massachusetts? 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:07:49] So Mayor Michelle Wu's proposal sort of came out in the media. Right. When cameras were surrounding Maura Healey at Andrea's inauguration, Andrea Campbell's inauguration, actually. So, you know, reporters tried to kind of take a really quick pass and asking her about it before most of us had really even digested the details that are available about what the mayor is trying to do. So that, you know, didn't get us much of anywhere. She says that she has to review it, but she does. You know, she remains, as she told me, open to looking at legislation if it gets to her in this in a form of like a home run petition or possibly maybe the Tenant Protection Act, that State Representative Mike Connolly and others are refiling on Beacon Hill for this session. 

Jennifer Smith [00:08:36] You asked her about the very common hot topic around office space conversions in downtown Boston. Let's hear what she said about that. 

Gov. Maura Healey [00:08:45] I think that that many have talked about the availability of office space downtown. I know that there's also interest in how that office space could be turned into lab space. And certainly there has been some talk about housing. But I think, you know, we can't take anything off the table when it comes to ways to address a housing crisis in the state and across this country in terms of the lack of affordability. 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:09:13] Yes. So this is interesting. And something I wanted to ask her, because this is starting to come up in cities with mayors and with governors across the country as people all over the country look at tackling housing crises and crunches. And it's it's interesting to kind of hear her look at this both ways, where, sure, it could be potentially for housing. It could also be converted into more lab space. I feel like every other day we're hearing about something else getting converted into lab spaces. Chances get very big and not along with that. So it'll be interesting to see if when she really does put out her full housing plan, if that's incorporated into it. 

Jennifer Smith [00:09:51] Absolutely. And of course, as you might expect, the reason that my eyes got really big is it's been one of the big questions in Boston in particular, but also plenty of other cities kind of along the red line corridor of what do you do when it comes to the. Increasing demand for biotech space that really started booming during the early parts of the pandemic. And the question is often, well, do you say we'll take as much as we can get there and try and amp up any taxes or linkage fees and basically try and extract as much as you can from development, which has often been what the BPDA and what the Office of Housing has been kicking around. Or do you try and basically act as a semi gatekeeper and say you may be willing to get into this space now and pay a lot for it, but we are in a very severe housing shortage. So any space is critical space. So it is interesting to hear her talk about that. You also did and I always love this structure, a very handy lightning round on taxes. Why did you do that? 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:10:56] I really wanted to kind of get her on the record again about where she stands on very specific pieces of kind of the tax proposal that was put forward by Governor Charlie Baker, former Governor Charlie Baker last year and actually sort of agreed to in the legislature before 62 derailed all of that. So I wanted to, as people are kind of refiling pieces of this, see if she still supports, you know, kind of what she's indicated this whole time that she would. So here's the exchange. Where do you stand on raising the estate tax? 

Gov. Maura Healey [00:11:28] I support it. 

Kashinsky/Healey [00:11:28] Whole tax threshold to 2 million? To support that. Support it. 

Gov. Maura Healey [00:11:33] And what about expanding the senior circuit breaker support, increasing the rent deduction cap from 3000 to 5000? Support. And slashing short term capital gains to 5%? Reviewing that. 

Jennifer Smith [00:11:48] Okay. And one potential I don't know if wrench in the gears is the best way to put it, but one kind of complicating factor is, of course, the dynamics between her and legislative leaders. Did you get any read from Healey about where she stands with Spilka with Mariano? Because there have been some points of difference so far. 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:12:07] Yeah. Right now, it's all, you know, talking about partnership, kind of the same thing. When reporters asked her about this after the first leadership meeting, I think it was last week that, you know, it's early. There's only been a couple of meetings between the new big three, at least in their current capacities. And as Healy said, she is, you know, hopeful that they can kind of find commonality and and reach some agreements on many different issues, including, you know, taxes and affordability. But Mariano, last session was kind of the cog in the wheel with with this issue, especially, you know, particularly once 62 hours came into play. And a lot of people on Beacon Hill, including Healey and Mariano, are waiting for the consensus revenue hearing later this month to kind of guide them on where to go next. 

Jennifer Smith [00:12:58] Well, Lisa, nice having you back here in the saddle, in the stables, whatever we call our little pod deal. Everyone can check out more on the conversation with Healy in today's Playbook. And I'm going to let you go while Steve and I talk about some trains. 

Lisa Kashinsky [00:13:13] Choo choo. 

Jennifer Smith [00:13:28] We've all been there standing on the subway platform late for work, waiting on an old orange line train that was due to arrive 20 minutes ago. And when it finally rolls in, its old, it's on its last breath. It's chugging along the tracks as it crawls along to our destination. Maybe it's even new, but then goes out of service for no obvious reason. Halfway there. Why does this keep happening to us, Boston area commuters? Where are all the new MBTA trains? We were promised new trains and implied in their is they wouldn't get pulled immediately for door issues. Our guest today says part of the answer can be found in a chaotic, error prone factory in Springfield, Massachusetts. Boston Globe reporter Taylor Dolven spoke to workers at the CRRC facility in Springfield and she is now here to speak with us. Taylor, thank you for being here. 

Taylor Dolven [00:14:14] Thanks for having me. 

Jennifer Smith [00:14:15] So how long has this Springfield factory been around? What are they actually making there? 

Taylor Dolven [00:14:20] So the CRRC, the Chinese company building the new red and orange line cars, got the contract from the MBTA to start producing the cars back in 2014. It took a few years to build the factory in Springfield and to find people to work in it. So production on the cars didn't start until 2018. So since 2018, they've been working on making the cars there. 

Steve Koczela [00:14:49] So for those whose memories may be shorter or selective, what was the reason at the time for choosing to construct basically a whole new facility from the ground up in Springfield and and do it that way rather than just ordering cars from a production facility that was already in operation somewhere else. 

Taylor Dolven [00:15:07] Yeah, this is just so key to this saga, this decision to require that a whole new factory be built specifically for this project. So back in 2014, the then governor, Deval Patrick and the legislature decided that any company that wanted to bid to for a chance to build these new cars for millions and millions of dollars couldn't do it in their existing factories in the U.S. or elsewhere, but needed to first build from the ground up a whole new factory in Massachusetts and hire workers in Massachusetts. This sort of built in a lot of delays and problems from the get go. The company that they decided to go with, CRRC, had never built a railcar in the U.S. before. And the work Springfield hasn't had a real manufacturing industry for a very long time. So the workers they're hiring locally don't have any experience doing this either. So we're talking about years of building this thing, training these people sort of from the get go, making and delays and risk. 

Jennifer Smith [00:16:29] So paint a picture for us. You wrote a very long, very good article about the experience of the workers at this factory. So what have they been seeing in terms of management errors in the actual process? 

Taylor Dolven [00:16:42] Yeah, So I important to note, I talked to former workers, so no one who's currently working there, but people who've left recently, less recently who were there before the pandemic started and who worked only during the pandemic. And they really describe a lot of chaos. None of the workers that I spoke to had any experience building rail cars before, as I mentioned. So, you know, they they told me a lot about issues with training, you know, not not feeling like they had a good understanding of what they were supposed to do. I think the most frustrating part, my sense from from talking to them was just the the supplies being a huge issue, not having the parts they needed to put into the cars, the cars, the car shells arrive from China and are brought to Springfield and then assembled with a lot of us parts and those parts that come from other companies all over the country. We're oftentimes not there when they needed them. And they they describe it really like an environment full of a lot of pressure to meet the delivery schedules of the contract and get these cars in service, but not having the resources to do it. And at times, you know, moving cars along the assembly line that don't have all the parts they need, skipping steps, having to go back. One worker describes not work. Going at all for seven months in 2019 and 2020, because none of the parts that he needed were there and he was either pretending to work or watching movies with colleagues. So just a lot of chaos and a lot of dysfunction, I would say. 

Steve Koczela [00:18:43] You noted one reason why sometimes parts weren't there. It seems like there have been disagreements, at least our mix ups, perhaps on invoices being paid on time, and therefore, at least one company that makes breaks for MBTA cars just said they weren't going to send they weren't going to work with CRRC anymore. So is that the common reason why parts seem to be missing or do we not really know why things aren't available to install, you know, sort of at the right time in the right place? 

Taylor Dolven [00:19:10] Yeah, we don't have the full picture. I sort of have pieces, pieces of the puzzle. So in a letter in December, the MBTA wrote to CRC basically calling out the company for having two of its main suppliers, one producing brakes, doors, other essential systems, and one producing propulsion systems. Also pretty essential and said that those companies had withdrawn from the project because of commercial issues in meeting minutes between the MBTA and CRRC last year. The issue of payment problems came up, the suppliers not getting paid. So there's evidence of that that we have. I also talked to a worker who described the. Disorder in the accounts payable system where invoices were not uploaded in an organized way were easily lost in the shuffle. And so at least at times, these major suppliers of parts as important as brakes and propulsion have have stopped supplying them or have pulled out or withdrawn in some in some way. 

Jennifer Smith [00:20:29] So what's the impact we've seen here? Hundreds of cars were promised. What are we actually seeing on the line? And as a regular red line rider, am I ever going to look upon a new red line train? 

Taylor Dolven [00:20:42] So there is one new red line train in service every now and every now and then. Trains are six cars long. This company is making 404 new red and orange line cars and has only delivered 90 to the MBTA at this point. The contract started in 2014, according to the original delivery schedule. They should have already delivered around 340 cars. So 90 is obviously not great and fewer than 90 are actually in service because there's a lot of work. So CRRC delivers the cars to the MTA, but the MTA then has to inspect them and accept them and then once they're accepted, they have to be burned in, which means they're run up and down the line over and over and over again without any passengers in them. So it's a lengthy process. There can be a lot of disagreements in that acceptance phase. And the T has 90 cars, but 90 aren't carrying passengers yet. 

Steve Koczela [00:21:51] You also noticed that much like the T itself, the delivery process has been delayed at the moment, meaning that your article mentioned that since September there's basically been nothing. No new cars have been have been showing up. So what's going on there? 

Taylor Dolven [00:22:07] Yes, that September was the last time the MBTA gave an update on how many cars had been delivered. It was 90 then. And their spokesperson spokesperson told me that it's 90 now. So no, no change since September. Per the original terms of the contract, they're supposed to be delivering four complete cars per month. So they're very, very behind. I think the letters that we obtained that the MBTA sent to CRRC in December really paint a picture of some of the back story here, you know, along with accounts from workers. But the cars are are full of errors is basically what the MBTA is saying when they're getting the cars, when they're inspecting them. Things aren't how they should be. Records aren't how they should be. You know, these cars are delivered with enormous things called car history books, which have every serial number, every, you know, screw that's been tightened, a description of the tightening process, like, you know, exhaustive records on these things. And those are incomplete or have issues. So, you know, I think we don't know every detail, but I think it's safe to say that the dysfunction at the factory and the production process is probably to blame for not a lot of cars being delivered recently. 

Jennifer Smith [00:23:34] And of course, this is in the context of a pretty broad period of turmoil for the MBTA that's kind of kicking back up and down all of our delegation levels right now, including Senators Ed Markey and Elizabeth Warren, who are talking about kind of the oversight problems with the DPU. There is a still to be announced new general manager of the MBTA. There are service cuts along the lines. So give us the rundown there in terms of the political football that's being kicked around. 

Taylor Dolven [00:24:06] Yeah, it's interesting. When it comes to these new orange and red line cars, the stakes are very, very high. As you mentioned, Jennifer, the you know, the old cars, cars that these are supposed to be replacing are long, long, long past their useful life. They're falling apart. You know, I think it's a fair assessment. So, you know, oversight and all of that is important, but they just desperately need these new cars. I think the you know, I'm really interested in talking to in the future a lot of the politicians and elected officials who really championed this red and Orange Lane car project. You know, the Deval Patrick administration, but also local elected officials, officials in Springfield, the legislature, Congressman Richie Neal. You know, a lot of people were behind this. It was actually hard to find people who weren't in favor of building this factory in Springfield and doing it this way. And I think, you know, the the oversight piece is going to be really important going forward. You mentioned the dpu. There's talks or there were in the legislature about whether the DPU should be in charge of overseeing safety at the T. The federal government found that they haven't done a great job. So who should be in charge of that going forward will definitely be playing out. You know, I would say over the next few months. 

Steve Koczela [00:25:42] Certainly a depressing story and plenty of blame to go around for now. We have to leave it there. Taylor Dolven, reporter for The Boston Globe. Thank you so much for being with us. 

Taylor Dolven [00:25:51] Thank you, guys. 

Steve Koczela [00:25:59] All right. That brings us to our final segment, which this week is something we're watching. Jenn, what do you got? 

Jennifer Smith [00:26:05] Well, I've got the literal and then the existential or political answer here. Literally, I just watched the first episode of The Last of Us on HBO, which involves an absolutely harrowing picture of an apocalyptic pandemic quarantine zone in Boston. So I feel very personally shaken and confused about what the old state houses they're referring to. If we're in an apocalyptic Boston, it could be either of the two. But then, politically speaking, I'm watching out for all of the upcoming bills that get filed at the filing deadline later this month in Massachusetts, because we are going to have the traditional firehose of potential laws to hit us all right. In the face right when we want it. 

Steve Koczela [00:26:49] That's a great metaphor. The Last of Us. I appreciated the Twitter conversation about if you actually wanted to erect that many cement walls in Boston like... 

Jennifer Smith [00:26:59] probably not happening. 

Jennifer Smith [00:27:00]  

Steve Koczela [00:27:00] You know, you can't take that much parking lot space. Not gonna happen.

Jennifer Smith [00:27:06] What about you, Steve? Also apocalyptic. 

Steve Koczela [00:27:10] Also apocalyptic. And that's, of course, because this week marks the return of The Bachelor, which is always one step closer to the end. No, seriously, that's the one very unserious thing I'm going to admit that I'll be watching. And then the other thing that's a bit more serious that I'll be watching is where the Healey administration is heading on housing policy. So we've got, you know, some indication that she views it as a priority, but not a whole lot of detail as far as, you know, new policies that will actually make a dent in the level of challenge that we're that we're facing. So what will the new policies be and when will we be hearing about them? That's what I'm watching. 

Jennifer Smith [00:27:47] Well, all right. I appreciate your serious and not serious answer. And if all of our listeners want to just flee for the entire rest of the year to avoid any bachelor coverage, we understand, but we don't respect it. That is all the time we have for today. I am Jennifer Smith signing off with Steve Koczela and Lisa Kashinsky. Our producer is Adam Boyajy. And don't forget to leave the horse race a review or rating wherever you're hearing us, to help other people find us. Subscribe to the Massachusetts Politico playbook and reach out to the Mass Polling Group if you need any polls done. Thank you all for listening. See you next week.