Episode 194: The push to unionize newsrooms
12/16/21--Newsrooms across the country are pushing to unionize. And those in Massachusetts are no exception. Today on The Horse Race, Jenn sits down with three guests who can speak to newsroom union negotiations from experience.
State Rep. Lindsay Sabadosa is one of the columnists taking part in the strike at the Daily Hampshire Gazette in support of the paper’s union. The columnists have told Newspapers of New England, which owns the Gazette, that they will not be writing any more columns until the company agrees to a contract with its employees.
Reporters Ally Jarmanning of WBUR and Kevin Slane of The Boston Globe and Boston.com talk about their experience with contract negotiations — WBUR employees having gone through both establishing a union as well as well as negotiating contracts, and Globe employees undergoing a three-year-long process of contract negotiations.
Full transcript below:
Jenn Smith [00:00:04] Today on The Horse Race, newsrooms all across the country are pushing to unionize. Well, what's behind that, and how is it going here in Massachusetts? That's all coming up on today's show. It's Thursday, December 16.
Lisa Kashinsky [00:00:25] Welcome back to The Horse Race, your weekly look at politics, policy and elections in Massachusetts. I'm Lisa Kashinsky here with Jennifer Smith, and I think there are a lot of those elections going on right now, at least the special kind.
Jenn Smith [00:00:37] Yeah, I hope everyone had a nice, relaxing evening following what was going on over in the first Suffolk and Middlesex district because I think we have basically presumably a new state senator since there is no Republican running in the general. Do we have a victor? Lisa?
Lisa Kashinsky [00:00:51] Yes, we do. It's Boston City Councilor Lydia Edwards in her second run for the seat. She bested Revere School Committee member Anthony D'Ambrosio in that special election last night, and the most interesting part about it is everyone going into Election Day or I guess, Special Election Day, I should say, thought it was going to be a tossup. No one knew who was going to win. You know, it was revere against Boston with Winthrop in the middle and I guess a slice of Cambridge too. And it turns out that Lydia won by roughly 20 points.
Jenn Smith [00:01:22] That's I mean, that is so interesting to me as well, because one of the discussions that always comes up in specials because it's short notice, you're basically just trying as hard as you can to get all of the turnout in, like your core areas out to the polls. A lot of the analysis was basically, you know, a lot of this district is Revere, where D'Ambrosio has, you know, very long ties and also Winthrop. So the question was always going to be like, can Lydia Edwards, not only pull in Boston and Cambridge, but also make significant inroads into those districts? And again, I'm just I'm just very struck by by the fact that it seems like it. It kind of did come down to turnout and by a handy margin.
Lisa Kashinsky [00:02:07] Yeah. Both of these candidates went hard with ground game. I mean, there were fliers for Lydia everywhere. There were signs for D'Ambrosio everywhere. But at the end of the day, it worked for Lydia and she had the stronger ground game of the two. And now she is on her way to becoming the first woman in the first person of color to represent this district and to be just the third member of color in the Senate right now.
Jenn Smith [00:02:33] Crazy. But if we want to very briefly, I'm sure we'll talk about this in future podcasts. But as usual, there is some news kind of further up the ballot, which is the governor's race and a name that we bring up every single week is more of you. Lisa, is there any potential Maura Healey news coming down the pike?
Lisa Kashinsky [00:02:53] I would love there to be so I can go on my merry Christmas way for this holiday season. But right now, here is what we do know. She has at least four fundraisers that have happened so far this month and to come. Some of those were scheduled before Gov. Charlie Baker and Lieutenant Governor Karyn Polito bowed out of the 2022 race. But there is definitely more interest in them now that it looks like Maura Healey might jump in, and she did hire a veteran Democratic strategist, Mindy Meyers. And you know, the thinking is, you don't do that if you are looking to run for reelection as attorney general.
Jenn Smith [00:03:29] All right. Well, I mean, as usual, we'll keep an eye out and see if anything changes there and hopefully get back to you next week with the great gubernatorial watch. But enough about elections. Today, I am joined by guests to talk about the Daily Hampshire Gazette columnist strike in support of the paper's union, as well as just kind of broader union negotiations in Massachusetts as a whole. So let's get into it. Writers at the Daily Hampshire Gazette have been on strike since October asking for fair wages and job security, among some other demands. They were joined this month by the paper's columnists, who are striking in solidarity with the union. Joining us to talk about the Gazette strike is state Rep. Lindsay Sabadosa, who on top of holding the first Hampshire seat, is also a columnist at the Gazette. Representative, thank you so much for coming back on the horse race.
Rep. Sabadosa [00:04:23] Thank you so much for inviting me.
Jenn Smith [00:04:25] So you've held the seat since 2019, but you've also been a columnist at The Gazette for years. So let's start with the second part of that resume for now. Why are the writers striking and why of the columnists join them?
Rep. Sabadosa [00:04:38] So I guess I want to go back just for a second and say that the writers are not officially on strike, but they have been working to negotiate their contract with newspapers of America. They formed a union back in 2019, and this would be the first contract. They are still negotiating that very first contract. And so they they went work to rule very recently, which really means they're only working per their job description. So all those extra hours that journalists usually toss in to make sure stories are perfectly edited and extra things get covered at the very last minute, they're not doing that right now. They did say they wanted to go on a byline strike, and I think if you ask them, they would say they are on a byline strike. The problem is that the newspaper has not respected that strike, so their bylines are being added back in for them, even though they submit their articles and their their work without those guidelines. So, you know, it's been a situation that's really, I think, devolved a lot over the last few months.
Rep. Sabadosa [00:05:46] It's been more and more stressful to hear from our journalists, our photographers, our editors, our layout people, all of whom are saying, you know, it's been about two years and we really want to get this contract done, particularly given that we've seen a lot of people leave the Gazette over the pandemic. It's been extremely challenging with, you know, with wages and with just, I think, general circulation issues that all newspapers are facing. And so, you know, the columnist, I'm sorry, the writers came to us a few weeks ago and they said, we think something that could be really powerful is if the columnist stand with us and they also go on and we'll put it in quotes, although I realize no one will see this. But there are some air quotes around the word strike because of course, it's important to remember columnists are not paid. We work for free. We send our columns to the Gazette monthly. I'll admit I'm not always great about doing it every month, but I but with some regularity and the columnist met and we had a lot of conversations about what it would mean for us. There are some personal risk for four people who you know, have their work published monthly, and the other newspaper might not want us back after this, and they might not look too friendly upon us moving forward. But it felt really, really compelling to join the union members who are really, you know, asking for a three percent raise. So if the average writer makes about $18 an hour, a three percent raise is 54 cents. It feels like really the bare minimum.
Jenn Smith [00:07:20] So I'm so glad that you brought up kind of the nuances of the term strike here because obviously one of the things that you brought up, which I think every journalist knows deeply in their bones, is that the job often includes substantially more time than you're actually contracted for. So it's actually a pretty profound step to say I'm only going to be working for the exact amount of time that's included in my job description, basically. And then, of course, with the byline strike, one of the ways that byline strikes have a lot of power is after an initial contract is agreed to. Writers are given control over whether or not they want their bylines associated with their work and without a contract, they have to basically put themselves on the goodwill in the nature of the management. So I'd love kind of your sense of this idea of the difficulties of pushing for a contract when you're kind of hamstrung by your ability or willingness to go on a full strike or being unable to, for instance, enforce the byline rules?
Rep. Sabadosa [00:08:25] Well, you know, I think that's something that the the writers and are the union members are really grappling with because, you know, two years out in contract negotiations, the question is really well, if if we if we're already work to rule and the byline strike is not being respected, then what comes next? And that's that's really challenging because then is that an official strike? The Gazette is wall to wall union so that that could really mean the paper not getting printed, which I think would have a serious and profound effect on our community. You know, the Gazette has been published. I'm going to get the year wrong, because of course, I didn't look it up before coming on, but I think it was. It's been published consistently since the 1870s. I'm sorry, that's wrong. 1780s. So it is one of the oldest publications in in Massachusetts, and to have that just stop publishing is a huge step for anyone to take.
Rep. Sabadosa [00:09:21] And I think that's why the union came to us and said maybe the next step is really asking the columnist to do this or to sort of find more more bit by bit approaches as opposed to just that. I think very traditional, you know it that you would see and we are picketing, we have been out in front of the Gazette many mornings we were there last week at seven a.m., people brought coffee and donuts, so it was an official picket in the cold and in the snow because it decided to snow that day. But it has been hard to figure out what are the steps that we need to take. The newspaper has never once told the writers and the union members that they can't afford this increase, and so that makes it really challenging because it's not like we're asking for something impossible. We're asking for something possible. We just need the other side to have a little bit of flexibility.
Jenn Smith [00:10:11] And to that point, you know, the Gazette is one of nine newspapers I think that are owned by Newspapers of New England, and the Gazette specifically is the largest of that group in Massachusetts. So it's not specifically being cited as a budgetary problem because there are I don't know if everyone wants to get into labor law here, but if the Gazette actually claimed, for instance, we can't afford this, they would have to basically open up their books and that would be able to be examined. So the question is, if it's not an issue of claiming they can't afford it, what is the sense from the union and and from the columnists about where this kind of breakdown is happening between management and the union negotiators?
Rep. Sabadosa [00:10:52] Well, I think and I hope that I'm not wrong on this, but I do think that the Gazette is the only or one of the few, we could phrase it that way, unionized papers that Newspapers of New England owns. So I think there is this whole idea of, well, now we're negotiating with the union and that just feels different. I think that that newspapers of New England very much views it as a negotiation. So they feel like, well, if you've asked for three percent, we must come back with one percent because that's how a negotiation works, which, you know, I can see having that viewpoint. I also think that when you break that out into cents, because it's still always cents, you know, that means they're offering a 30 percent raise for one year, whereas the unions are asking for fifty four cents over each year for three years. The union has also been asking for a lot of protections against outsourcing, which I think gets a little bit more to the heart of the issue. Just getting very into the nitty gritty of western Massachusetts. Newspapers of New England also owns the Recorder, which is published up in Greenfield. There's been a lot of overlap. The Greenfield Recorder is not unionized. We're seeing a lot of stories coming from Recorder writers as opposed to Gazette writers. But Northampton, as we like to say, is a union town and we are protecting our unions. So we're going to keep with them and doing whatever they ask us to do to help with these negotiations.
Jenn Smith [00:12:11] So what's the local reception been so far? Of course, one of the difficulties of organizing in a newsroom is you also don't really have the ability to write inside of your own news product about the efforts, which is why, for instance, byline strikes are often used as a signal to readers that something is is afoot.
Rep. Sabadosa [00:12:30] Well, and so that's interesting because you're right. We've it's been funny to watch how NEPM and MassLive and other publications have been covering the strike, but to then open the Gazette and see nothing. There was one letter from the publisher of that kind of said, All things are great over here, I think, is that don't worry, folks, which I don't think a lot of people believed. But the the union did organize a community forum. I participated in it. Congressman McGovern participated in it. A bunch of labor organizers, Alisha Fleming from Jobs with Justice was there and we really talked about, you know, what the newspaper was going through and why it was so important for the community to get involved. So I think that people do know and the reception has been very positive and supportive for the newspaper. A lot of us, I think, have a great deal of interest in seeing local news continue. I mean, when you think about it, you know, it's where you go to see your kids, you know, playing in the local football game or the baseball game. It's where you find out about like the holiday fairs that are happening or if us coming or where a menorah is being lighted. And that's why you turn to your local newspaper, as well as for the things that are happening on school committee and City Council or select board meeting, whatever that might be for your particular community. And because that covers most of Hampshire County. So there's a lot of towns that they are running around trying to make sure are included. If that goes away, there is nothing else that is going to cover that.
Rep. Sabadosa [00:13:55] You know, there might be a little local town paper, but there's nothing that covers that wide area, and so the community does seem to really want to do this and in terms of coverage within the Gazette, you know, when we talked about the columnist going on again, air quotes strike, it was a little bit inspired by one of the columnist who wrote writing about Veterans Day, put a line in his column that said, And just let's all remember when we're talking about supporting our veterans, we need to make sure that we're paying people and paying people means supporting our unions. Like this is there was a long list of things that you should do that maybe aren't so obvious if you're going to be supportive of veterans. And that sparked the idea. And since then, several columnists have tried to write about negotiations and support for the union in their columns. Unfortunately, the newspaper has refused to publish those.
Jenn Smith [00:14:49] And so I would like to also kind of get your take because we've talked on past episodes about the state of journalism in general, but also specifically in Massachusetts. You know, obviously labor news is everywhere right now, but there have been some major pushes in the news space. The other half of this podcast is going to be talking with journalists who have who have been involved in in organizing successfully. But as a columnist, but also as an elected official, how does this impact the way you look at journalism as an industry, but also as kind of a public service that's also usually privately funded?
Rep. Sabadosa [00:15:21] Yes. So that's an interesting question. The privately funded part of it, right? Because we've spent a lot of time grappling with that, if that's what our news should really look like, if there shouldn't be more public funding for news, if newspapers shouldn't actually be community owned or co-op based or owned by the the journalist themselves. And there are models where that's happening, and there has been legislation filed in different states that sort of play with this idea of, well, maybe this shouldn't just be publicly funded, I'm sorry, privately funded. I think we've certainly seen the dangers of what can happen when news media is privately funded, because then you get that slant that really just goes in one direction. And I'm certainly thinking of very large right wing slanted publications that have come to the fore over the last four years, publications I've never heard of. I'm thinking of Breitbart just off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's a lot more. And so I think, you know, we haven't really come to a decision about what that should look like in Massachusetts. We passed a commission into law last year that really looked at the state of journalism and access in in different deserts across the state. But we haven't gone further than that and I would be I would be interested to to sort of grapple with that. Is there a way for there to be publicly funded media that is not just like our are big, you know, even our big national NPR now is really, I think, supported more by advertising and and other things than it really is by just the public. And it has it's made a big difference in the way things are reported.
Jenn Smith [00:16:51] Mhm. And the last question I think that we have time for is along that note, exactly actually, which is one of the other columns striking is state Senator Jo Comerford. So especially, have you two discussed slashes? There been kind of a broader discussion among legislators about whether or not there is an aspect of the field that this might highlight that might call for some sort of legislative solution? Or is that something that we're more waiting on kind of the state of journalism in Massachusetts committee to really work its way through?
Rep. Sabadosa [00:17:22] I think a little bit we're waiting for the state of journalism committee because the conversations are not easy. I've spoken with legislators out of Connecticut and out of Maryland and Delaware, and then there was a little bit work being done in D.C. proper about maybe it's time to change this. I think it's really interesting. If you just look across the state, though, you know, the Berkshire Eagle, I think is being is a really good example of sort of that paper being what was about to close and then being bought by someone who was really committed to journalism. And I think we're seeing amazing and incredible work come out of that paper. So we're trying to figure out how maybe we break that down to more locally owned papers. That might be a first solution as opposed as these sort of conglomerates and newspapers of New England is huge. They own a lot of newspapers, but there's very little local control. And I know, you know, personally, having spoken to the publisher when he first came on, you know, he'd never been to Northampton. It's really hard to run a paper and be in charge of something if you have no knowledge of the area that you're covering. So this may be kind of the the push to go in the opposite direction that we've been going in the last hundred years. But if the Gazette is part of that conversation, we've been part of conversation since the early 18th century. We may as well keep going.
Jenn Smith [00:18:38] Well, thank you so much. Rep Sabadosa. I'm sure we'll see you out there on the picket line.
Rep. Sabadosa [00:18:42] Absolutely.
Jenn Smith [00:18:46] So let's take a small step backward in time now and look at newsroom contract negotiations that have recently resolved. Granted, after literal years, if you're a horse race listener, it's a safe bet that you read and listen to Massachusetts coverage coming out of newsrooms where employees have pushed for union representation and fair contracts. And even when those demands are met, it can sometimes be a long road to get there. So joining me to talk about two of those efforts and the general state of newsroom unions, we have reporters Ali Jarmanning of WBUR and Kevin Slane of Boston.com and the Boston Globe. Thank you so much for being here and a happy extended strike-tober to all.
Ally Jarmanning [00:19:21] Thanks for having us.
Kevin Slane [00:19:23] Thank you so much. Excited to be here.
Jenn Smith [00:19:25] So let's get our listeners situated as of right now. What is the unionized status of your workplaces and is there a contract, Ali, you want to start?
Ally Jarmanning [00:19:33] Yes. So we are we are in the midst of our first contract, which will expire in June of 2023.
Jenn Smith [00:19:42] And Kevin, how are things over there at the Globe?
Kevin Slane [00:19:45] As you may have heard, we just finally ended a nearly three year long negotiation period and have reached an agreement for a new three year deal that just went into effect November 30th and runs for three years. So November 30th, 2024 is one. It'll expire,
Jenn Smith [00:20:07] so let's figure out how we actually got to this point. And bear in mind where we are right now is not the end of anything in general. Of course, you know, compensation needs and workplace conditions change and develop over time. Journalism is hardly a stable field, though these contracts obviously add some needed stability to the question. Ally, let's start with you and WBUR. How did you first get involved in those unionizing efforts and why?
Ally Jarmanning [00:20:30] Yeah. So way back in 2018, which feels like a million years ago, we had a lot of turmoil. A WBUR host was fired over creating a hostile workplace environment, and that led to a lot of movement at the management side to say, Oh, we're going to fix this, we're going to make things better. And so spoiler alert, staff did not feel like things were made better. We didn't feel like we had a seat at the table as some of the decisions were made about what the workplace was going to look like going forward. So in that summer of twenty eighteen, myself and a couple other people started talking to SAG-AFTRA. That is the union that represents NPR and a bunch of other public media stations. And so, yeah, we started talking to them about what it might look like to organize WBUR, what it might look like to form a union if it was right for us.
Ally Jarmanning [00:21:25] And so basically, we spent that fall of twenty eighteen into twenty nineteen organizing the one hundred and twenty members of the content creating staff, and we went public with that union. In twenty nineteen, we had a vote. We won. And so then we got into the hard work of negotiating the contract and getting a first contract is not easy. It takes, you're starting from complete scratch. And so luckily, we had a lot of great, great other contracts like NPR and elsewhere to base it on. But it took us about a year and a half to get there, and that includes a little bit in the pandemic, which I do not recommend negotiating a contract in a pandemic that affects financial bottom lines. But but we did it so and now we're in the midst of that first contract.
Jenn Smith [00:22:06] And I'm glad you brought up two because there's a few parts to this process. There is kind of initially establishing the union and then there are the contract negotiations that come up every few years or so once the union is recognized. As you noted, Ally, WBUR has gone through both stages, and just like the last three years, the Boston Newspaper Guild has existed since, I think, 1940. But the past three years have been a drag out contract negotiations. So, Kevin, what was that kind of early process like for starting this contract negotiation over there?
Kevin Slane [00:22:38] Well, interesting enough, I actually joined the process midway through because it was a pretty long process. Yeah. And additionally, Boston.com was actually not part of the union when these negotiations started. It had been carved out as a new initiative which allowed the Globe to run brand offshoots like Boston.com and STAT News with nonunion employees for five years. And Ally and I actually worked together at Boston.com during that time and, you know, without getting too into the weeds, I think we could both agree that the newsroom would have benefited greatly from being unionized. But long story short--
Ally Jarmanning [00:23:20] Hard agree on that one.
Kevin Slane [00:23:22] Yeah, we we saw some stuff. Things happened. But anyways, so I joined the governing board right when Boston.com was added to the union in 2019. And then I took over as recording secretary in March 2021, when our previous recording secretary left the company. And. The process had started back late in 2018, and right from the start we knew that this was going to be kind of a different negotiation than we were used to in that, you know, the company hired Jones Day and Trish Dunn, who's specifically known through the industry for negotiating very tough newsroom deals. And you know, the initial contract offer we receive was just so so far and away from what we had previously operated under that it really took the entire three years to kind of claw back to kind of a sense of normalcy. So that's, you know, from the outset, we knew it was going to be a tough battle. And when I joined halfway through, we still had a year of hard work to do before we got to the contract that we finally landed on just a month ago.
Jenn Smith [00:24:34] So Kevin, speaking of those kinds of differences, what were you asking for at the beginning and what was this initial offer that was was so far away from it so people can kind of get a sense of what did you spend a year on beyond that, right?
Kevin Slane [00:24:49] So I mean, it's it's almost hard to remember back to those early, early days. But you know, the the initial hope when when we sat down and to be clear, I was not at the table at this point, but from what I understand, you know, the initial hope was that we would be able to grant some small, you know, operational flexibilities to help the globe, you know, ensure its its future and chart a, you know, a successful path in the very tough world of journalism. And what we got instead was an effective tear down of every single worker protection and rights that we had worked so hard for over the, you know, since 1940, as as you mentioned, you know, looking at issues like being able to unilaterally outsource any job from within the newsroom, unilaterally lay people off with no regard for seniority, have absolutely no appeals process for any sort of just cause discipline or monetary questions.
Kevin Slane [00:25:58] And beyond all that, even if we did eventually get a contract, our owners would have been able to sell the newspaper to a different entity. And that entity would not have to honor our contract thanks to the removal of something known as the successors and assigns clause. So there was a lot of stuff and that doesn't even go into wages. And so we spent the better part of three years just kind of trying to one by one negotiator, each of those items and find the middle ground that we could both live with.
Jenn Smith [00:26:33] And then Ally, because the BUR union-forming process and kind of the contract were happening, obviously one after another. But sort of at the same time, the discussions were obviously very intermingled. The reason for wanting to form a union is obviously consistent with the things that you ask for once you form it. So what were the things that you wanted to see remedied at the time?
Ally Jarmanning [00:26:58] Yeah, I think the biggest thing was just having a seat at the table when decisions were made. So like having an ability to be part of the hiring process for, you know, having hiring committees for the people that can that are going to be hired at high levels, what you were able to get, you know, talking about what salaries people would be paid, what kind of benefits people would get. Honestly, just having a place to go when there is a problem where you are had a real problem with inequity and favoritism. And so there were some people at the station that felt like, ‘Hey, I can walk into the GM's office and just ask for whatever I need.’ And there were many, many, many other people who did not have that ability were definitely afraid of of asking for for what they deserved.
Ally Jarmanning [00:27:45] And so having a process where everybody was kind of brought to a level playing field, I mean, we didn't even think that that salaries were out of whack when we started all this. People at BUR were generally happy with, like, especially of our benefits because we work for Boston University, you know, we get great vacation and and health care. But like 50 percent of our union saw a raise when they were brought up to the new minimums in the contract, which was something that, like I don't think anyone would have predicted. And that's again negotiating minimum salaries during a pandemic when a lot of people were not expecting to get a ton of money in that contract. But I think also like a great example is WBUR laid off about 10 percent of its staff, basically in the days between us agreeing on a tentative full agreement contract and everybody, the final votes coming in. And because we were able to negotiate better severance because we were able to have a SAG-AFTRA lawyer represent us, we were able to. Actually, give some I remember answering calls from people who had gotten laid off them being like, What do I do? And I'm like, OK, here's who you call. Here's the lawyer that you know you can talk to. Here's the severance you're going to get that that was far and away better than what they would have gotten if we had they had laid people off before the pandemic. So just like having that ability to to talk to folks and have somebody on your side is huge. I mean, we the stuff that we're dealing with now, we still, you know, are helping people with everything from, you know, on part time and they haven't been paying me vacation like they should be to, you know, they're they're revamping a show and people are worried about what that means for them and their their work and their hours and their ability to to work at WBUR and have opportunities. And so, you know, it's a place where people can go to advocate for them.
Jenn Smith [00:29:34] And so thinking about the steps that are involved in kind of continuing to negotiate and advocate for the terms of a contracts that are favorable to you, folks, there are a few things about journalism specifically that make it a little bit tricky. Obviously, one of the the biggest ways that especially a new union, but unions in general would would push for for better terms is a strike. And I believe Kevin, over the summer, it was reported that you guys had authorization for a strike if you wanted to do a strike. But what was the consideration from the Globe Union and also WBUR about the kind of tactics that would be best to use during the negotiation process, including like picketing walkouts, that sort of thing?
Kevin Slane [00:30:21] Right, so as Ally mentioned, you know, it was difficult having this whole thing take place or the latter half of it, I guess, during a pandemic, you know, staying in touch with your with your employees, your coworkers is just made all the more difficult and having, you know, safe signs of solidarity during a pandemic when asking people to gather is such a tenuous ask was really tough. And just to go back to what you said about the strike authorization, we actually had had a non-binding strike authorization, which was kind of more of a, you know, a litmus test. And, you know, a supermajority of our employees did did ratify or say yes to giving us that power. And we we simply took that as a reflection that, you know, the membership was was serious about this fight. And even though it was dragging on and on that they were they were here to the bitter end. And we also, you know, saw that later on as we we used some some more in-person actions in the in the later half of negotiations.
Kevin Slane [00:31:36] But I mean, early on in the first year, we really just tried to keep things, you know, internal because we've never really had to have that type of, you know, action before to kind of make our make our voice heard. This was, you know, again, this is my first negotiation. But in speaking with other members of the negotiation team who have been through this before, they said this was by far the most difficult they had ever faced. And this was all kind of unprecedented territory for us. But we did our best to kind of look at what we've seen from honestly, you know, from WBUR from the New Yorker, from other, you know, unions that had successfully offered public pressure campaigns along with, you know, internal solidarity to get their their point across to management. And so it was really a kind of a mix, but it really is what we kind of felt it out as we went based on how negotiations were going at the moment.
Jenn Smith [00:32:41] And Ali, I'm interested to kind of talk to you sort of about the the terms of the contract because it's been in place for a little while now. So you've you've been able to kind of see it in action. So how have the actual terms interacted with kind of the daily functions of journalism? One of the things that often comes up is, you know, journalism often involves many more hours than are technically set out as the expectation for a workday. How have these these requirements, how have the benefits, how have the kind of review structures and ours actually looked in practice?
Ally Jarmanning [00:33:17] Yeah. So one of the things that we were really concerned about in this came to a head during the pandemic was just the number of hours that people were working. And so and this was even before, you know, the pandemic there was there's if you are trying to put a live show on every day, you are going to work a lot of hours. And so one of the things we fought for and got was hour for hour comp time. So that means if you work longer than an eight hour day, you get you get comp time. I mean, it would be great to have that be overtime, but because of some technicalities of what BU believes about our workforce, it is comp time, but that was huge during the pandemic. I mean, I can speak personally. I had, you know, days and days weeks of comp time from working weekends, working super long days. Like literally, my husband would just serve me three meals a day in my office so I could, like keep things going in the spring. Thankfully, I don't have to do that anymore, but a lot of people were doing that and do continue to work really long days and to be able to get that.
[00:34:13] WBUR also had a real longtime abuse of temporary employees. So these are people that would come in to work. We call them freelancers, but they're not really freelancers. I mean, they would work 40 hours a week for weeks and weeks and months and months and sometimes years. And I mean, that was just one of the unifying forces behind unionizing as well was like, so many people are to be are have been eventually hired on and were staff and are represented by the contracts. But for a long time, they were in this like very tenuous position where like you don't really know week to week whether you're going to have a job and what your hours are going to be like and you feel like you can't say no to your boss if they ask you to, you know, ‘Hey, can you work this Saturday?’ or whatever it is.
Ally Jarmanning [00:34:53] So we even before we signed the contract, we got B.U. to finally agree to follow its own policy of only having temporary employees work for nine months, and then you have to hire them on. So we had a bunch of people that got hired on immediately as full timers because of that, that rule there, that that threshold that they had passed. And now we're just kind of watching to make sure that that is continued to be used in the right way. Of course, we can use temps, someone goes on sick leave or if they're on a special project or something like that, but it can't be used to just like keep a show up and running. You know, we don't want to have this like second class workforce, basically.
Ally Jarmanning [00:35:26] So and we've been able to do that. And in terms of the comp time, like, I think the programing is still as good as it was before. You know, people are just getting some kind of, you know, money, not exactly money, but they're getting time back that they can use at some point. But you know, there's still, you know, I think of things that we want to get in the contract for next time that we need to to worry about. You know, I think that there there is definitely this attitude of, I mean, this is not just journalism, this is any management and anywhere they have. It's like, I remember, like core power yoga was going to like organize and reading there, like why you shouldn't or their management messaging about why you shouldn't organize. And it's the same stuff that we heard like this will get in the way of the work. And like, you know, we care about the customers, the clients, the listeners, whatever you want to use. You know, we're family, you know, we can work it out and it's like, Nah, it's all the same everywhere. They all, they all operate from the same playbook, and it's very easy to set to see where the holes are in their messaging and see how it's worked at so many organizations like, you know, the Globe, at BUR, at NPR and elsewhere, it's like, the product is still really good.
Jenn Smith [00:36:31] I'm so glad you kind of brought up the broader context here. So, so for Kevin, you know, how are you seeing this kind of current moment of union organizing, particularly in newsrooms? But obviously, you know, the the Starbucks folks up in Buffalo have organized. There's talk of it here in Boston, notably the Wirecutter union at the New York Times has just, you know, completed a kind of successful effort to get changes to their contract. So, so thinking of kind of the press's role in reporting on active unionizing efforts outside of the field, but also being workplaces themselves. What impact does being in a unionized or not unionized newsroom have?
Kevin Slane [00:37:13] You know, I would hope that being in a unionized or non-unionized newsroom, they would approach the issue of labor equally, but you know, I can't say that for sure. I am pleased to see that, you know, unions have expanded their reach and more and more, you know, workers in various sectors are considering unionization. I think that, you know, I hope that this kind of trend also leads to newsrooms perhaps evaluating or reevaluating how they cover labor. You know, I think a lot of how it goes right now is you might have, you know, a business reporter that kind of has that as one of seven or eight things in their portfolio. And you might have maybe, you know, maybe maybe a food writer covers, you know, coffee shops, unionizing or maybe an arts reporter talks about like a local theater that is unionizing. But you know, I would love to see newsrooms that have, like, you know, a dedicated labor reporter who really kind of understands these broad issues and can, you know, kind of own that beat? And we have seen some of that, you know, I think we do a pretty decent job at the Globe. But if this kind of continues to grow the way that it is at the moment, I think, you know, it'll have to be looked at as you know, as to how we will increase that coverage and and make sure that our readers are our best informed on that.
Jenn Smith [00:38:46] OK, great. Well, I mean, we could literally talk about this all day, but I think we all have--
Ally Jarmanning [00:38:52] It's my favorite.
Jenn Smith [00:38:53] I really would talk about this for three hours, but I don't know if our listeners want to do a Patreon where we just do Labor Hour. But for now, thank you so much. Ally Jarmanning and Kevin Slane for coming on and talking about this. I'm sure it's going to be an ongoing conversation. And if this stuff comes up again over at Ye Olde newsrooms, I hope we can have you back on.
Kevin Slane [00:39:17] Yeah, thank you so much. And yeah, I would love to come back anytime.
Ally Jarmanning [00:39:20] Definitely. And if there's anybody who is union curious, find me and I'm sure Kevin would do the same. I'm happy. Definitely. I'm happy to talk to folks about what it's like.
Jenn Smith [00:39:31] Go hunt them down. All right, thank you so much. And that brings us to our final segment this week, we are bringing you another edition of Pony Express, which gauged people's feelings about some very spicy Boston politics takes shared by one mayor, Michelle Wu, to one Lisa Kashinsky. Lisa, what hornet's nest did the mayor kick this week?
Lisa Kashinsky [00:39:56] Well, we already know she has a controversial opinion on candy corn, but she took it a step further. This week, she told me that we've got to change the culture of riding the tea. It is a civic space for community conversations. But she said that everyone's always really quiet on there. I don't think that the internet agreed with that.
Jenn Smith [00:40:15] I don't think so either. And of course, the listeners can't see it, but I'm sure they can hear it in my voice, just the concept of me talking to anyone on the train as wild. So so our beloved co-host, who is not with us, literally. But here in the spirit, Steve Koczela out there on the internet, asked his Twitter followers a crucially important meta norm survey, and he asked them, What do you think? What is the meta a place for? And he offered community conversations being really quiet or I don't have an opinion. Show me what people think. And I mean, I know we have the poll results in front of us. But Lisa, if you had to do a stab in the dark here, how do you think people feel about the tea as a place for conversation?
Lisa Kashinsky [00:40:57] I'm going to say being really quiet for one hundred.
Jenn Smith [00:41:01] Well, it was being really quiet for 73 percent of the respondents. So I mean, I think you win on that one. Quiet on the tea is kind of sacred, a sacred space to not make eye contact and not talk to anyone. And even the mayor herself weighed back in on it, didn't she?
Lisa Kashinsky [00:41:18] Yes, she did. To be clear, before she gets recalled, as she said on Twitter, I'll be delighted if you come talk to me, but also get it if you're busy or want space. And for what it's worth, she told me after she got back from D.C. this week that she didn't talk to anyone on the metro either while she was down there, but she did livestream part of her ride. Anyway, that's all the time we have this week. I'm Lisa Oshinsky here with Jennifer Smith. Thank you all so much for listening. Don't forget to subscribe to us wherever you listen to your podcasts. Subscribe to the Massachusetts Politico playbook and paying the Massing Polling Group for polls. We'll see you soon.