Episode 178: Recounting the Days

4/21/21--This week, there's good news surrounding the vaccine in Massachusetts. Saturday marked a happy milestone in that the state surpassed 2 million residents fully vaccinated against COVID-19.

In national news, all eyes were on Minneapolis Tuesday night when a verdict came down on the Derek Chauvin trial. Chauvin was convicted on all charges in the death of George Floyd. Massachusetts political figures have since been responding to the decision, including the six Boston mayoral candidates during a forum Tuesday night.

Jenn and Stephanie parse the candidates' responses during the forum to issues including racism, police accountability, the Boston Planning and Development Agency, affordable housing, and education.

Later, the hosts are joined by Boston Globe reporter Matt Stout, who wrote about a puzzling development upon an election that occurred more than a year ago. He explains why a former write-in candidate for the Republican state committeewoman is suing the Secretary of State's office.

Full transcript below:

Stephanie Murray: [00:00:03] Welcome back to The Horse Race, your weekly look at politics, policy, and elections in Massachusetts. I'm Stephanie Murray here with Steve Koczela and Jennifer Smith. And before we hit record, we were debating this Boston Globe column about why you should ask yourself the whole time you're on a Zoom call. [00:00:21][18.3]

Steve Koczela: [00:00:22] Yeah, I honestly don't know. I read the whole article waiting to see, like, a clear indication that this was satire. But it's not it does not appear to be anyway. It's such a terrible idea that I still want to think that it's satire, like to to, like, foist all the noise of my household onto everybody else just because they're talking to me. Seems just like the word one of the worst ideas I've heard in a while, which is saying a lot. [00:00:47][25.2]

Stephanie Murray: [00:00:48] I just-- our producer Libby just sent us a note in our chat that we can't commute, or at least I can't. When my cat Gigi is running around my apartment wildly. I don't mute my cell phone like our raw recording that we do. And so I'm sure Libby could pipe in some sound of me saying, like, "Gigi, stop, stop clawing the door, stop clawing me, stop clawing the microphone." [00:01:08][19.8]

Steve Koczela: [00:01:08] That's what we should do. We should just have Libby like, mix a bunch of the sounds that she takes out, like all of the sound that it actually makes when we make the horse race. And then I think it would be really clear why this is an absolutely terrible idea. [00:01:19][10.7]

Jennifer Smith: [00:01:20] It's true. I think, you know, there's something kind of sweet and earnest about the underlying idea that, you know, we're all kind of distant from each other. And so in a lot of ways, we're not kind of like hearing the normal sounds of life when you're muting yourself, when you're not talking. But the thing that really got me is, is her talking about kind of the the skepticism around unmuted until she was in a Zoom magic show. And as Stephanie and Steve can vouch for, because I was just yelling about this, the very confusing example for me is a place where everyone is supposed to be quiet, like they're required to be quiet unless you're affirming one person. So I don't know. I also love going to the theater, but I don't enjoy being in a room of a hundred people all chopping vegetables at the same time. Those seem to be kind of different scenarios. [00:02:10][50.2]

Stephanie Murray: [00:02:12] So The Horse Race podcast is going firmly on record as pro mute button. If you disagree with us, you can refer to the comment section. We don't have one, we'll mute you. [00:02:22][9.4]

Steve Koczela: [00:02:23] Just send us a bunch of-- I think what you should have to do if you disagree with us is just like send us a bunch of ambient noise and we'll just play it like this is what you're like and that's what we'll do. I mean, I'm with Jenn. I do get the idea. It's like we want collective experiences. You don't want to tell a joke and have everybody just waving their hands quietly. You don't want to say goodbye and not have sort of the chatter like everybody just does the awkward vertical wave. All those things are terrible. But one of the only things I think that makes it OK is that at least you can hear you can tell who's supposed to talk. You can kind of-- there's some level of organization. So but of course, Zoom, mute preferences aren't the only thing that we have to discuss here as much as we'd like to spend an entire podcast on it. Stephanie, what other news we're talking about today? [00:03:07][44.2]

Stephanie Murray: [00:03:07] Yes, we do. The state had a pretty big milestone over the weekend. More than 2 million Massachusetts residents are fully vaccinated now as of Saturday and on Monday, all residents over the age of 16 are eligible to book vaccine appointments. So that number is just going to keep going up. [00:03:24][17.0]

Jennifer Smith: [00:03:25] Yeah, that's right. So now everyone gets to experience the free-for-all that is trying to get an appointment where you can get an appointment. So I bet a lot of people are going to be driving to parts of the state they hadn't previously considered. [00:03:37][11.8]

Steve Koczela: [00:03:38] Yeah, including New Hampshire, which of course, also opened their vaccination appointments to anyone who wants to make an appointment. Looking at the Massachusetts statistics, who have at least one dose, we're at 3.4 million people. Fully vaccinated we're just about 2.1 million, according to the latest statistics. Just by way of reference, there's 4.8 million adults and about six point nine million people in Massachusetts. Of course, only those 16 and above are eligible for the vaccine currently. So just kind of to to help us think about, like, how far along we are among those who even could get the vaccine if they wanted to. That's kind of where things stand. [00:04:14][35.7]

Stephanie Murray: [00:04:15] And with all of those new vaccinations and the beautiful weather, I do have to to register one complaint, which is that there are zero patio reservations for any restaurant in the city of Boston or the surrounding areas. I started looking last weekend when I saw the forecast for this week and was looking pretty good and there's pretty much nothing. So I guess good problems, especially for businesses that have been hurting over the past year. But inconvenient for me who would like to go drink outside. [00:04:41][26.3]

Jennifer Smith: [00:04:43] And also convenient for those of us who live in nice Dorchester three deckers with porches. That's that's that's been pretty key, to be honest, since the weather is nice, the trees are budding. But and look, here's the thing. I don't know why it's always me doing this one, but we have to make a very unpleasant segue to what's happening on the national stage right now, because the weather is warming up, but I'd imagine a lot of people yesterday were very much glued to their screens and glued to Twitter, waiting for the jury verdict to come in in the Derek Cauvin case, who, of course, knelt on and killed George Floyd, the jury finally came in and declared three guilty verdicts for second degree, third degree murder and also for manslaughter. So it was a very tense time, I'd imagine, across the country, all at about the same moment yesterday. And I suppose the thing to basically talk about from there is the reaction in Massachusetts, Stephanie. People almost immediately-- electeds and kind of civilians alike-- expressed relief. But, you know, still a lot of trepidation going forward. [00:05:48][65.2]

Stephanie Murray: [00:05:49] Yeah, that's right. From members of Congress to, you know, people running for the Boston mayoral seat. The reaction was, you know, relief, like you said, but also the feeling that this was just one ruling or one verdict, I should say, in one case. And there's a lot more that needs to be done. I mean, we've seen shootings and police killings across the country in different places over the last couple of weeks, especially. So certainly a fraught moment still right now. We're recording this on Wednesday morning. There are protests planned this evening in Boston and different parts of the city in the afternoon and evening. And those will be interesting to watch as well. [00:06:26][36.8]

Steve Koczela: [00:06:26] Also, a big issue, of course, in the candidate forum for Boston, the Boston mayoral election. Stephanie and Jenn, I know you'll be talking about that later. And we also have the rest of the polling that we promised you last week. We did, of course, the poll for WBUR, the Dorchester Reporter and the Boston Foundation that looked at the Boston mayoral election and a number of different issues. And one of the issues that that looked at, not in a lot of depth, but a couple of questions was just the issue of racism. And we asked a question that we've asked before, which was how serious of a problem do you think racism is in the city of Boston? [00:06:59][32.2]

Steve Koczela: [00:06:59] Something kind of interesting there is that the very large majority, 81 percent, say that they either see it as very or somewhat serious. So that really is almost everybody. There are some differences in the percent who say very serious. There you do see black and Latino residents more likely to say that it's very serious than white residents. But even among white residents, you still have 79 percent calling it at least somewhat serious. Part of that, of course, has to do with personal experience. We also asked the question whether you yourself have experienced discrimination in the past year in Boston because of your race. And I think probably needless to say, we found black and Latino residents much more likely to say that that had happened to them personally than white residents. So 44 percent of black residents, 33 percent of Latino residents said that that had happened. One other dynamic that really sticks out in this poll is the issue of age. There's a whole bunch of issues in polling and politics in general, where over time these things change just because young people become a larger and larger portion of the electorate. You know, the views that they have become more prevalent just as they grow in their share. And we found that among those under the age of 30, 61 percent of those residents said that racism was a very serious problem. So I think over time, you should expect that this will continue to be seen as a more serious problem than it has been in the past. [00:08:21][81.2]

Jennifer Smith: [00:08:22] And the interaction of race and policing, of course, was a really big question at the mayoral forum. So we're going to get into that in just a second. But we are also going to be having a chat about a very different election that happened back in the year 2020, if we can remember that existing. Stephanie, who do we have keeping us company today? [00:08:42][20.2]

Stephanie Murray: [00:08:43] We will be talking with Matt Stout of The Boston Globe, all about this legal dispute that I can't quite wrap my head around. So I'm really looking forward to talking to him. [00:08:50][7.7]

Jennifer Smith: [00:08:52] Love an obscure Massachusetts election question. So we're going to say goodbye to our polling expert, Steve. And Stephanie, how about we chat about some mayors? [00:09:00][8.6]

Stephanie Murray: [00:09:01] Let's go! [00:09:01][0.3]

Stephanie Murray: [00:09:08] It is spring in the city of Boston, and the race for mayor is taking shape, five of the major candidates, all Democrats, faced off at a forum on Tuesday night organized by Boston's Democratic committees for Wards 4 and 5, and it was moderated by Callie Crossley. The forum offered a pretty clear view into where the candidates stand right now. So to break it down, we have my acclaimed co-host, Jennifer Smith and me. [00:09:33][25.1]

Jennifer Smith: [00:09:35] This is so exciting. I'm just it's a real privilege to have you on Stephanie. [00:09:39][3.2]

Stephanie Murray: [00:09:39] Oh, the honor is all mine. Just so nice to have you as a guest. [00:09:41][2.3]

Jennifer Smith: [00:09:43] It's I mean, look, it's a delight because, you know, we like-- around I think at its peak, 500 other people were glued to their Zoom's watching with interest as a bunch of mayoral candidates suddenly had to deal with some of the kind of grimmest news of the day all at once right up front, because the forum started just hours after the Chauvin verdict came in and the very redacted Patrick Rose file was made public. So that, of course, is the issue around a former BPD union member, as we as we discussed last week, who has been accused of repeated instances of sexual abuse of children over the years. So that file dropped right before the forum started. And for that reason, much of it was dominated by police reform and racial justice. [00:10:35][52.2]

Stephanie Murray: [00:10:36] Yes, it was. And I think that, like having those two things happen right before the forum, just kind of like put into perspective the issues that are going to be driving this race to some degree, policing and racial justice. And, you know, even as like things happen on the national stage, there's very much, you know, a lot going on scandal wise inside the Boston Police Department. So there was no shortage of criticism over the way that those things were handled and a lot of relief from the candidates over the showband verdict. Jenn, what stuck out to you? I mean, toplines like things that you heard in the forum that we should we should rehash. [00:11:11][35.7]

Jennifer Smith: [00:11:12] Yeah. So so some of the big things that often come up are good questions, good toplines. And then because of kind of the limits of a forum system, a limit to the amount of depth that that any candidate can really get into. So, for instance, most of them made pledges of renewed transparency around the Boston police, but then didn't really have great answers about how to how to get it, aside from kind of continuing to push for, as Andrea Campbell noted, how to how to basically push for more data. But noted, I think, interestingly, a number of issues when the city council, for instance, has tried in the past to get the Boston police to kind of come to the table and explain what's happening, sometimes they just refused full stop to come to city council hearings. [00:12:01][48.8]

Jennifer Smith: [00:12:01] So it's interesting to hear they've refused to come to council hearings in in the past, but then not really have a clear explanation on how they're going to be compelling the Boston police to be coming to council hearings in the future if that's the goal. I think another thing is that there was a lot of talk about systemic racism, which, you know, shouldn't surprise anyone. But again, forums are a little bit tricky for this, because once you've finished listing all these problems, you have no time to say how you'll fix it. Kind of aside from going back to, depending on the candidate, 'we need more police' if you're Annissa Essaibi George and saying some of the issues are the budget not allowing for as many police officers as we need in the city or less police and budget reallocation as the majority of the rest of the candidates supported. You get into issues of, well, should there be better or different training and how do we address that bias? And then suddenly you're on mute because your time is up. [00:12:58][56.3]

Stephanie Murray: [00:12:59] There was quite a lot of muting in the forum, so candidates were kept right on time. So they got to a lot of issues. We heard from five of the six major candidates running for mayor. Acting Mayor Kim Janey was slated to be at the forum, but she pulled out and suspended her political events, which included a fundraiser that was planned for later that night to, you know, respond to the verdict and the city's reaction to it and to prepare for anything, you know, coming down the pike in that regard. And so I had been looking forward to kind of seeing the candidates do the forum with the incumbent mayor, incumbent acting mayor, I should say, you know, in the mix, talking about the budget that she just filed, which includes cuts to police overtime funding, but also adding more officers to to make up for that overtime cut. So kind of a bummer that we didn't hear from her. But, you know, plenty of time. I think there are five more months until the September preliminary election. One thing that I would have been watching for is Andrea Campbell, the city councilor, to kind of take a swing at Janey on policing. It seems like she was laying the groundwork for that with an op ed in the Boston Globe the morning of the forum. Calling on her to, you know, do more when it comes to cutting police funding. [00:14:12][73.2]

Jennifer Smith: [00:14:13] Yeah, there were some really interesting divisions, I think, among the candidates as well that I want to highlight, because everyone in this is, you know, a Democrat, as you noted. But there are some real policy and priority differences. You know, I mentioned Annissa Essaibi George kind of saying she didn't believe in cutting the police budget. And that's something that you want to contrast with. For instance, Michelle Wu and Andrea Campbell, who say A, cut the budget, reallocate those funds and abolish the gang database, which has been very controversial. And then you had both Jon Santiago and John Barros who say, yes, let's reallocate these funds to to other places. There are some things that we're having police do that they shouldn't be doing, but they were OK with leaving the gang database in place. So if you're really kind of wanting to get into the minutia of how are these mayoral candidates thinking about the role of Boston police, you can look at kind of the the very quick yes and no section of of this forum where it was, for instance, should police be in schools? Everyone said no. Annissa Essaibi George said basically there are no police in schools, which I think confused some folks about whether or not we're talking about kind of community support officers and whether or not she's defining those as as police. But there's a lot there, especially in the rapid fire sections. [00:15:37][83.8]

Stephanie Murray: [00:15:38] So Jenn speaking of those rapid fire sections, what were kind of the daylight areas where there was there were clear differences between the candidates? [00:15:45][6.9]

Jennifer Smith: [00:15:46] Oh, OK. So this is a very nuancey one but I loved this. There was this fun tension, in my view, around the power of the city council to make budget line item changes. This has been a really fraught discussion over many years because Boston is a strong mayor city. And that means that generally what they say goes the council either has to, like, vote up or vote down the budget and they kind of just have to work with that. All of the current city councilors running. So that's Essaibi George, Wu, and Campbell say that the council should be able to make those line item changes. But then both John Barros and Jon Santiago, who are coming from, you know, the mayoral administration and also the state level, both say they should not be able to make those line item changes. So, I mean, for for people who like paying attention to what the power dynamics might be in the future between city councilors and mayors, this forum had a lot of stuff in there. One additional interesting thing that was no different for any of these candidates was everyone's cool with ranked choice voting in the city of Boston. That was very interesting to me. [00:16:50][64.5]

Stephanie Murray: [00:16:52] I think, you know, to go back to your point about the budget line item changes, I think that's kind of like the the question in any election like this is like if you're not, you know, the person in power is the mayor or the mayoral administration. And you say, of course, the council should have more power. But, you know, when that person is elected, well, they still, you know, want to give the council more power. They are the mayor. It it's interesting. [00:17:14][22.6]

[00:17:15] It's a great point. I think, you know, that that there are now in fact, all the current councilors are on record saying, like, go ahead, mess with the budget. If you're if you're on the council and I'm the mayor, the housing section was was a little bit hit or miss for me. There was kind of confusion or I guess sort of messy answers around what exactly to do with the Boston Planning and Development Agency, with some people saying abolish it, like specifically Michelle Wu saying abolish it and create a different agency that is independent, but also somehow accountable to the city that's focused on kind of equity and inclusion and planning. But then it wasn't clear if there should still be a development focused arm. For instance, there were basically answers along the lines of if you're John Barros, you know, it actually the BPDA actually needs more power. [00:18:10][54.9]

Jennifer Smith: [00:18:10] If you're Jon Santiago, you say don't abolish it, but reform it. But it wasn't very clear what that meant either. So that was kind of a confusing issue. There were interesting but kind of handwaving answers about affordable housing, mostly along the lines of we should be encouraging homeownership. There are these existing barriers. We should, for instance, set the metrics for what affordability is closer to local metrics rather than kind of state level metrics, which can often make it seem as though affordability is much higher than it might be in any specific neighborhood. Everyone was cool with the idea of a real estate transfer tax. There's an existing city proposal that puts that tax at about two million, which everyone but Jon Santiago said they were fine with. Only Michelle Wu was kind of unequivocally fine with the idea of if the state no longer banned rent control, should we have rent control in the city of Boston, so she said yes on that. What did you think, speaking of state issues, about the way that they were all grading Charlie Baker's response to the pandemic? That was an interesting one for me, too. [00:19:18][68.0]

Stephanie Murray: [00:19:19] I think, you know, the grading is tough because you can kind of pick a grade that isn't like grade or bad and doesn't really say a whole lot. And that is what everyone did. Michelle Wu gave Baker, I think, the lowest grade out of anybody with a C minus, but, you know, not a D or an F. Cs get degrees. Jon Santiago gave him a C plus John Barross gave him a B minus. Andrea Campbell gave him a C plus only because she had to, she said that she didn't like the question. And Annissa Essaibi George gave the governor a B minus. So not like a whole lot of insight there. Those are kind of if you are saying can you rate the governor on a scale of one to ten, they'd be choosing of five. But Jenn and I were texting when we were watching the forum last night, obviously, because we have nothing else better to do with our lives. And we go back to weren't we were thinking back to the Senate primary debate between Joe Kennedy and Ed Markey when neither of them would say that they would vote against the Republican governor and for a Democratic governor candidate, not even a named one. So, you know, just goes to show how popular the governor is, even with, you know, his dented approval rating due to the vaccine rollout. Still kind of a political don't go there asone for Democratic candidates. [00:20:37][77.6]

Jennifer Smith: [00:20:38] That's a great point. And and, you know, obviously, this was a two hour long forum. There's tons in there. It's all available on the Facebook live for the wards, four and five committees. So if you want to go watch the whole thing, go ahead. I'd kind of like to shout out just a few things on the education front that were interesting to me, which was that it seems like no one wants more charter schools, even though not everyone was as kind of forthcoming as, for instance, Michelle Wu just sort of saying no to the question. A few people kind of hedged around it, said we needed to work with the state more. The question of what to do with the Boston School Committee, Wu, Campbell and Santiago say they're OK with a hybrid school committee selection, but they were OK with different versions of it, some including an elected portion. And then Annissa Essaibi George and John Barros said they're cool with keeping it appointed, but they wanted a little bit of change as far as youth votes or the nomination process. And then there was a mix of responses to the very high profile ruling saying that the way that Boston exam schools modified their admissions process during the pandemic was fine and not discriminatory. [00:21:56][77.6]

Stephanie Murray: [00:21:57] And before we move on to our our next segment, Jenn, I mean, it's interesting in this race that the candidate, the candidate field is pretty city council heavy or Walsh administration officials and not so much state lawmakers. Did you feel like the candidates backgrounds were influencing kind of what they were pointing to and the positions they were taking? [00:22:17][20.5]

Jennifer Smith: [00:22:18] Yeah, I did. This was something that that came up a few times when the questions were basically, how do you think the city should be approaching X? And the city councilors, for instance, could basically point to local legislation or home rules or committee work in these relevant areas. For instance, Michelle Wu points to her proposals around, you know, local green New Deal. Andrea Campbell points to her work around police accountability and police data. Annissa Essaibi George points to efforts to kind of have additional school counselors, trauma supports, education issues. John Barros had a bit of a back and forth with Kim Janey, acting mayor Kim Jany, last week over this very flashy hiring equity announcements with John Barros noting that he was with the city when this was being developed, even though it's being rolled out now. [00:23:08][49.9]

Jennifer Smith: [00:23:09] And then, interestingly, Jon Santiago mostly kind of referred to legislation on the state level, you know, for instance, the police reforms or the climate bill, but didn't really say therefore, I think something similar should happen on the Boston levels. So it's not as clear whether or not he's saying we should be replicating what we've done at the state level or I like the things that we've done at the state level. And so that's the sort of thing I'd expect to do if I were mayor. So it is an interesting distinction when you can literally say I tried to do this thing with busses in Boston. [00:23:42][33.1]

Stephanie Murray: [00:23:43] Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, we know that either background can win an election in Boston. Marty Walsh was formerly a state lawmaker. Mayor Menino was the acting mayor and city council president, which we have said many times on this podcast. And before we wrap this up, I mean, just to note, this field is pretty much said candidates have pulled their papers to run the signature called. Election process begins, I think, next week, so, I mean, maybe one more person could jump in not I mean, I'm not expecting anyone else to. Seems like this is going to be going to be the field. [00:24:18][35.1]

Jennifer Smith: [00:24:19] I think that's it. Well, we'll keep an eye on it. Hope you all were watching right along with us last night. And let us know if you have any thoughts. [00:24:27][7.6]

Jennifer Smith: [00:24:30] A year after an election to a little known position in Massachusetts politics, a legal battle has erupted. It involves the secretary of state's office, the city of Boston and the Massachusetts Republican Party somehow. And our guest today has written all about it and joins us to break it down. Matt Stout, reporter for The Boston Globe. Thanks for being here. We're very confused. [00:24:49][19.7]

Matt Stout: [00:24:51] Thanks. Thanks for having me, and hoping to do my best to clear up what is a very confusing situation. [00:24:57][6.0]

Jennifer Smith: [00:24:58] Perfect. So give us the scoop. This can be kind of complicated. So first, let's kind of explain what this election was in the first place. It was the second Suffolk District Republican state committeewoman. Why is this position a thing? [00:25:11][12.8]

Matt Stout: [00:25:12] Yeah. So I think one thing to know is this is not a public office, at least under sort of the rules of the game. Essentially, the governing body of the Massachusetts Republican Party, which is their state committee, are actually elected positions that are put on the presidential primary ballot every four years. So this was essentially, if you were if you pulled a Republican ballot to vote for Trump or anyone else, Bill Weld, whatever, whatever your preference was, you were also voting for your local committee person on the Republican Party, which is essentially broken up by state Senate district. So within each district, you're looking at electing a man and a woman to the Republican State Committee. In this case, you had the second Suffolk, which is essentially the southern part of Boston. You had a you had no one on the ballot. Actually, it was only three writing candidates that were essentially running for the position. And so this was and it was the only committee essentially committee election where you had no one nominated, no one on the name. This was, by all intents and purposes, the most sort of unknown race that was on the ballot in March or at least last March 2020. [00:26:22][70.1]

Stephanie Murray: [00:26:23] So there was no one running and no one was actually elected, but then they had to fill the seat. Is that what happened, so the state committe had to fill the seat anyways? [00:26:34][10.3]

Matt Stout: [00:26:35] Correct. Yeah. Under the the rules, you have to at least get a very small number of 50 votes to meet the threshold to be elected. None of the three writing candidates under the initial count got 50 votes. The highest vote getter was 25. So through that process and literally something that took 10 months in its own right, the Republican Party then holds its own sort of caucus, internal caucus situation to elect, you know, who wants to fill the seat. And they did that. And I apologize either November or December, which then was ratified this past January, which essentially sat the person who finished second in write in votes, which I actually technically they I think the first and second they finished third with six votes. They were they were put onto the, you know, essentially put on the Republican State Committee. [00:27:27][52.2]

Matt Stout: [00:27:28] But amid all this, shortly after the vote you had who was the top vote? The top vote getter. And I apologize. I don't want to put your name, but Nicaela Chinnaswammy got the 25 votes immediately, was under her telling, was told within five hours of the sort of votes being certified that she didn't meet the threshold. She claims she didn't have enough time to get the number of signatures needed to do a recount, which would have been five hundred and fifty signatures, 20 times what she actually got on the ballot, strangely enough. And it sort of started this long legal process where at the time she she sought an injunction to stop it. It was dismissed months within the ensuing months, she sought, essentially, I think, at the-- before the mass Republican Party did its own election for its chairman, for Jim Lyons in January. [00:28:31][62.8]

Matt Stout: [00:28:32] She also sought a court order then to essentially stop the process and eventually where she won in court, which was the end this year. She, along with the city of Boston's Election Commission, reached an agreement to do a recount a year after the election, which was then approved by a judge to because, again, this is very much in the weeds. Nicola had a essentially an independent study of, hey, we believe there was votes here, the limits and that independent study, which was done by actually Evan Horowitz, who runs a policy center over at Tufts University, but in his own sort of independent, you know, regard said, yeah, it looks like you might have missed, you know. Seventy four percent of the votes actually took place. It would have been a few hundred. [00:29:25][53.1]

Jennifer Smith: [00:29:26] So they did this recount and, exactly as those who are pushing for it expected, there were, in fact, more votes. [00:29:33][6.5]

Matt Stout: [00:29:33] Yes, there was roughly 150 votes and we were talking small. So, I mean, you're talking, you know, a district. We have six hundred and, you know, one hundred and sixty thousand people. I think living I mean, you're talking about like a minuscule amount of votes, but enough under the law to technically meet the threshold where now you just won. We had about sixty five votes and the other two candidates had, I think 50 and thirty seven. And this was found in a March 27th, 2021, 389 days after the election done in the recount. Then it was then sort of accepted by the Boston Election Commission at its meeting on March 31st, which then they sent the results over to the secretary of state's office. But at this point, you have sort of this new wrinkle in sort of this long legal process where the secretary of state, William F. Galvin, feels, you know, you missed the boat a year ago to do a recount and to certify the results. We're not going to get in the business of a year later, sort of, you know, reopening this box. You also have the Boston Election Commission, while recognizing it, did a recount, at least according to lawsuit, claiming, you know, we don't have the power to recertify at this point. The results either, which then prompted again, I believe this is either I think this is the third lawsuit technically that was filed against the secretary of state, against the Boston Election Commission, asking a judge to force them to, hey, this recount was done. It was court ordered. Please recognize these votes. Please recognize me as the one who's duly elected to this position. And here we are. [00:31:12][98.6]

Stephanie Murray: [00:31:12] What a 2020 story to be, you know, unusual election votes being found and counted in lawsuits and all of these things. So why, you know, what's the Mass GOP reaction to that and why is this position important? I mean, one thing that I can think of off the top of my head is just that the vote for the party chairman, which has been, you know, a big thing in politics for the past couple of years when the party's control shifted over to Jim Lyons. So, you know, why is this important and how are they reacting? [00:31:44][31.3]

Matt Stout: [00:31:45] So the initially at the initial recount, when the results were released, the Mass GOP put out a statement on this. Jim Lyons said, calling for the Boston Election Commission, all their commissioners to resign. He felt this was, as he put it, you know, a display of something going wrong here, like how did you miss these votes? And also dredging up to a certain degree that, well, if they miss votes here, do they miss votes for another writing candidate, a congressional candidate that they had? You know, they had fought to be put on the ballot. That was unsuccessful, sort of, you know, again, not really part of this particular race, but that that's what they focused on. But to make clear, the MassGOP is not a part of this lawsuit. They are sort of a relevant nonentity that's cited in it. But they're declining comment. And according to the lawsuit, will not sit Nicaela Chinnaswamy unless there is a recertification of the vote. So you get into this whole I mean, it's all internal politics to a certain degree, because this is you're talking about. Yeah. A state committee position. There's 80 of them. Yeah. [00:32:50][65.1]

Matt Stout: [00:32:50] One of the primary jobs is to elect its officers for the party, including its chairman. And, you know, there even though there's this recount, which at times during the process, the party itself, according to the lawsuit, opposed actually happening, you know, they're essentially saying that, you know, we're not going to make any change until it's recertified. So this sort of this weird middle ground where the GOP is not being sued, but they're right in the middle of this because essentially, if they choose if they wanted to to recognize the results, I mean, I'm not sure exactly what the process would be, but could they hold another caucus? Could they, you know, take the results and say, hey, yes, you know, you were duly elected, even if this is sort of a very unusual process, you know, according to secretary of state, sort of the rules or at least, you know, political party rules will trump the state to a certain degree. So if they wanted to, they could. But that's not happening. And it's sort of resting on, well, now, this lawsuit was seeking for them to, you know, for a candidate just wanting to be recognized as the winner, which I guess we'll see. I mean, at this point, essentially the complaint is filed and there hasn't been any movement on it to date. So I guess I guess we'll see how the court takes it. [00:34:06][76.3]

Jennifer Smith: [00:34:08] Well, speaking of the secretary of state's office, though, we kind of gestured at this a little while back in terms of William Galvin does not think that, you know, this is a really good way to be dealing with election aftermath. You know, it's been more than a year. He says this would set kind of a strange precedent. What is he worried about happening? [00:34:27][19.9]

Matt Stout: [00:34:28] I think he's worried about giving precedent to any candidate who doesn't like the results to then try reopening the results months, year, who knows how much time, passed when when you legally can, which is, you know, within I believe it's six days of the vote, you know, before they certify where you have to file what you need for a recount. I mean, essentially loosening that law with with case precedent. [00:34:53][24.7]

Stephanie Murray: [00:34:54] Matt, is this the sort of thing that happens often? You know, that these committee seats, nobody runs for them and then or somebody doesn't meet that vote threshold to be elected and the committee chooses someone on either side of the aisle? Or is this like an unusual event that nobody was able to clear those votes? [00:35:12][18.4]

Matt Stout: [00:35:14] That's a good question. I'm not sure how often it's happened. I mean, usually the state committee always has its its full aid unless there's some type of resignation, you know, midterm, if you will. I'm not sure how often it's gone to this. I mean, this is obviously unusual because of the legal wrangling it's it's produced and sort of the fact that it's dragged on so long. I can't say for sure whether someone hasn't run. I mean, when you're talking about the Republican State Committee, especially within Boston, there needs to say that is not looked at as a Republican stronghold. So the fact that you didn't have someone nominated, I mean, perhaps that doesn't jump out as much. But whether there is that sort of has ever happened before, I can't say. But I think that's what sort of lends itself a little bit to this. I mean, you're talking about a a very you know, this is Sonia Chang-Diaz's district. I mean, this is a very democratic, solid blue district. And to not perhaps find, you know, sort of like a at least in the advocacy circles or activist circles, you know, a strong Republican, it may not be that surprising because this is not looked at as sort of by any means Republican territory, even by Massachusetts standards. [00:36:21][67.3]

Jennifer Smith: [00:36:22] Well, I think that's about where we have to leave it today. I'm sure this will only get more tangled as it goes on. But for now, Matt Stout of The Boston Globe, thank you so much for being here. [00:36:31][9.2]

Matt Stout: [00:36:32] Thank you. Appreciate it. [00:36:33][1.0]

Stephanie Murray: [00:36:35] And that, of course, brings us to our favorite section of the podcast trivia. Last week we asked you which Massachusetts figure said this incredible and memorable quote. Here it is. I love my cargo shorts. They are the most comfortable things ever. Who's with me? #Cargogate. The answer, of course, is former Mayor Marty Walsh, now the secretary of labor. Tons of people got this one right, including notorious Twitter troll Scamwell Tarly, someone who uses the username Drewdawg, and Tania del Rio, who offered to trade in all of her trivia points and her kids' Octonauts for a Suffolk Downs hat from Jenn's acclaimed collection. Jenn, what do you say to that? [00:37:18][42.7]

Jennifer Smith: [00:37:18] I mean, I got to say I will give it to you if you will keep the Octonauts. So I don't know if I have the vaccine necessary to take care of an entire household worth of Octonauts, unlike Steve and his very lucky kids. So yeah, once it's post pandemic, we'll figure out a place for me to Frisbee away ahat at Tania. So sorry for everyone else. No hat for you. [00:37:44][25.8]

Stephanie Murray: [00:37:45] Everyone will wear cargo shorts. [00:37:46][1.2]

Jennifer Smith: [00:37:47] No, no, no. If some, if anyone shows up looking for a hat wearing cargo shorts, they don't get them. That's that's my hard line rule. Which brings us, of course, to this week's question, which is interesting. Which Massachusetts town found radioactive cat waste in their garbage bins last week? Boy, I don't know the answer to this one. I hope it's not mine. [00:38:11][23.4]

Stephanie Murray: [00:38:14] I am speechless by this question. I don't think that's a sentence. But this question has made me speechless. If you know the answer, please tweet it at us or email it or, you know, send a carrier pigeon. [00:38:25][11.3]

Jennifer Smith: [00:38:26] Yeah. Just don't send us anything radioactive. But that is all the time we have for this week. I am Jennifer Smith and I've been here with Stephanie Murray and Steve Koczela. Our producer, as always, is Libby Gormley. Make sure to leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for the Politico Massachusets playbook if you aren't already. And hey, if you need any polls done, call The MassINC Polling Group. We'll see you next week. [00:38:26][0.0]

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